Scottish football without the OF

[Ill Ray]

3 minutes ago, Forever_blueco said:

To be honest the first few years could potentially be like that but I feel that over time it would again be dominated by the same teams over and over again I.E most Likley Aberdeen , Hibs and Hearts .  It’s just what tends to happen in football the clubs with most resources most often rise to the top and tend to stay around there. 

I concede to your logic here but I’d make a counterpoint that even still they’d be more tangible for other teams than what the old firm currently are and I could see seasons where teams like Hamilton find an Alex Neil again and go on to cause an upset. Can’t see Old Firm breaking away right enough but the unknown of it would excite me and rejuvenate my interest in the league because I find myself more looking to the cups than anything else. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Ill Ray
Grammar

[Jacksgranda]

13 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

I would like a British Cup over the league idea. I don't want us to leave the Scottish Leagues, if they properly integrated both leagues so Hibs and Hearts etc have a chance at winning then that would be good, more money for everyone. In the situation where it was only on offer to the Old Firm I wouldn't want it. I know everyone on PnB is united in their staunch anti Old Firm stance so I know it would be welcomed on here but I'm also sure 5 years after people would still be blaming Rangers and celtc for something. 

Some will be "devout" in their anti Old Firm stance.

[TheScarf]

13 minutes ago, Dunfermline Don said:

I think the game here could thrive without them.

You would have a number of teams starting the season believing they could win the league rather thinking finishing 3rd was successful.

Fans will come out to see successful teams actually playing for something. I have seen a bigger crowd at East End for the Pars playing Raith when both were going for promotion than the Pars got against the OF the following season.

The only thing that could spoil it would be if they left colt teams.

There's definitely more home supporters at games for most clubs when they're not playing the OF as opposed to when they are.

[paulbrucerick]

Just a thought, and feel free to shoot it down as I haven't really thought it all out, but would Rangers and Celtic joining the English league dilute the baggage?

Only two league games a season, the majority of opposition supports not giving a toss about Ireland, Israel or Palestine and more of a chance they would be separated more, in league placings, thus creating other rivalries.

As I said, just a thought.

 

 

[Aim Here]

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Aim Here

[Forever_blueco]

9 minutes ago, Ill Ray said:

I concede to your logic here but I’d make a counterpoint that even still they’d be more tangible for other teams than what the old firm currently are and I could see seasons where teams like Hamilton find an Alex Neil again and go on to cause an upset. Can’t see Old Firm breaking away right enough but the unknown of it would excite me and rejuvenate my interest in the league because I find myself more looking to the cups than anything else. 

Again in the first few years I would imagine it would be but if after 20-30 years of those three teams domination the same gripes would go full circle . 
 

once regular titles and any sort of European opportunity that goes with it becomes apparent I would imagine those 3 clubs would get their act together and make sure they use the resources they have to make sure they are regularly challenging. It’s more or less the same story in every league . It’s not just an issue in Scotland 

[BigDoddyKane]

Id prefer Celtic stay in Scottish League and we create a fair and balanced way to share out the money raised in domestic game and the money that comes from europe, I dont think the issue with scottish league is any different from most european leagues. The european money flows to a few clubs only in every league and has created a gulf between them and the rest that becomes impossible to bridge. 

If uefa and domestic FA's got together and created a big aligned plan for all the money that comes in at euro, domestic leagues level tv, sponsorship and a fairer gate money sharing. scheme that was euro wide for domestic and euro game then i think we would see competition come back in all the leagues.

Thats what i would prefer. 

 

On the question would SPFL survive without Celtic and Rangers, I think yes and it would do well. 

[Dons_1988]

8 minutes ago, paulbrucerick said:

Just a thought, and feel free to shoot it down as I haven't really thought it all out, but would Rangers and Celtic joining the English league dilute the baggage?

Only two league games a season, the majority of opposition supports not giving a toss about Ireland, Israel or Palestine and more of a chance they would be separated more, in league placings, thus creating other rivalries.

As I said, just a thought.

Shhh, you're putting them off the idea of leaving

[paulbrucerick]

2 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Shhh, you're putting them off the idea of leaving

[harry94]

I'm all for them moving on but I do think we should be very firm in demanding a reparation payment as a cost of departing and hurting our broadcast and sponsorship revenue. There's no precedence for this sort of thing and it would be a live re-writing of the rule book.

The prize pot here is something like £25-30 million. If they are taking 2k fans a week to 19 away games, that's ~£2 million in gate money. Add in their Hampden appearances and that's at least £3-4 million. Getting to a group stage is worth at least £4 million in solidarity payments. 

They will be getting +£100 million each as top flight teams in TV rights alone - I imagine you double that at least with their own sponsorship and gates. You could see some foreign investor coming in and seeing the opportunity to put big money in. If they got to a point of being regular continental competitors or even just a plaything, they can rocket up the rich clubs list. It's a drop in the ocean to negotiate an ongoing settlement to 'bridge the gap'.

I don't really see why one of the big English clubs would want them in there. They are too much of a threat for the Champions League places if they are inherited by a competent owner. Similarly they are taking up top flight space for other teams. They maybe add some value in having the OF derby branding and a bit of intrigue but it's not like the Premier League is struggling for income. Less risky to leave them poor and cold on the outside.

[Forever_blueco]

20 minutes ago, paulbrucerick said:

Just a thought, and feel free to shoot it down as I haven't really thought it all out, but would Rangers and Celtic joining the English league dilute the baggage?

Only two league games a season, the majority of opposition supports not giving a toss about Ireland, Israel or Palestine and more of a chance they would be separated more, in league placings, thus creating other rivalries.

As I said, just a thought.

 

 

Would probably increase issues on celtic‘s side in the first few years in all honesty.  Lot of English wouldn’t take too pleasantly to IRA sing songs in the ground and potential for bother would be quite high in some grounds. Wether that would result in celtic’s support reacting by trying to stamp it out or feeling more emboldened and going the opposite direction is the question.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Forever_blueco

[ahemps]

11 minutes ago, Forever_blueco said:

Again in the first few years I would imagine it would be but if after 20-30 years of those three teams domination the same gripes would go full circle . 
 

once regular titles and any sort of European opportunity that goes with it becomes apparent I would imagine those 3 clubs would get their act together and make sure they use the resources they have to make sure they are regularly challenging. It’s more or less the same story in every league . It’s not just an issue in Scotland 

No other league in Europe has only had 2 winners for 36yrs now.

The gulf in finances between the top 2 clubs in Scotland is also the biggest in Europe.

Hearts Hibs and Aberdeen would need to get to 50k- 60k a week to create this equivalent gulf.

Scandinavian leagues are fairly competitive, Sweden has had 10 different league winners since 2000, they have had clubs in the European group football in that time but they have never went on to dominate to the levels we currently see elsewhere.

Bodo Glimt have just won their first Norwegian league which has also seen 6 different winners since 2000 granted Rosenburg dominated for a long time and were regular CL participants but their grip was broken.

It is not a given that leagues have to be dominated by the same teams.

 

[paulbrucerick]

5 minutes ago, Forever_blueco said:

Would probably increase issues on celtic‘s side in the first few years in all honesty.  Lot of English wouldn’t take to pleasantly to IRA sing songs in the ground and potential for bother would be quite high in some grounds. Wether that would result in celtic’s support reacting by trying to stamp out it out or feeling more emboldened and going the opposite direction would be interesting 

Yeah I get that, could it be the catalyst to stamping it out though? Higher profile league so more scrutiny. Does the EPL have strict liability?

Edit. Plenty of teams seem to like having Rangers and Celtic as testimonial opposition are, the song sheets different for these gsmes? Not having a go genuine query.

Edited April 22, 2021 by paulbrucerick

[GordonS]

35 minutes ago, ahemps said:

The winner of the league would enter the CL qualifiers but even if they get beat they may only need to win 1 tie to get Europa league group football. Teams like Dundalk, FK Dudelange and Slovan Liberec are qualifying for the Europa, these clubs are nowhere near the size of Aberdeen, Hearts or Hibs and in fact these 3 clubs can match Slavia and Sparta for average attendances so they have good potential. European group football may offset lost revenue from a TV deal granted it would only go to the clubs and not the league as a whole. The coefficient would go down but after the top 15 countries who get 5-7 places the rest get 4 so being 16th or 48th wouldn't matter. 

European competitions for Scottish clubs are like the Scottish Cup for part-time clubs - they can provide the occasional exciting run and the odd glamour tie, but that's all. It shouldn't be something around which to make long-term decisions.  

32 minutes ago, Forever_blueco said:

To be honest the first few years could potentially be like that but I feel that over time it would again be dominated by the same teams over and over again I.E most Likley Aberdeen , Hibs and Hearts .  It’s just what tends to happen in football the clubs with most resources most often rise to the top and tend to stay around there. 

Those clubs could never really have more than about 3 times the budget of the next tier of clubs, unlike the OF who each have more than the other 10 combined. They would doubtless win most league titles between them but they could never be strong enough to lock out the odd win from St Johnstone, Killie, Motherwell or the likes. 

[Ill Ray]

Also another point to add to the debate is we could restructure the league to have more teams then due to the fact we don’t need to meet a desired amount of old firm games for broadcasters. A lot of people have been in favour of a 16 team league for example.  

[Forever_blueco]

34 minutes ago, ahemps said:

No other league in Europe has only had 2 winners for 36yrs now.

The gulf in finances between the top 2 clubs in Scotland is also the biggest in Europe.

Hearts Hibs and Aberdeen would need to get to 50k- 60k a week to create this equivalent gulf.

Scandinavian leagues are fairly competitive, Sweden has had 10 different league winners since 2000, they have had clubs in the European group football in that time but they have never went on to dominate to the levels we currently see elsewhere.

Bodo Glimt have just won their first Norwegian league which has also seen 6 different winners since 2000 granted Rosenburg dominated for a long time and were regular CL participants but their grip was broken.

It is not a given that leagues have to be dominated by the same teams.

 

I can see your point but I’m just putting my opinion out there that given resources Aberdeen , Hibs and Hearts would most likely become Scotland’s big 3 . Right now at their peak they can attract around 20, 000 when all is going as well as can be. With regular titles , cups and European football all 3 of those teams could easily extend to teams which could attract 30 - 40 000 in my opinion over time of continued and much more regular success . Wether they would want that influx of glory hunters is another thing 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Forever_blueco

[ropy]

1 hour ago, Forever_blueco said:

To be honest the first few years could potentially be like that but I feel that over time it would again be dominated by the same teams over and over again I.E most Likley Aberdeen , Hibs and Hearts .  It’s just what tends to happen in football the clubs with most resources most often rise to the top and tend to stay around there. 

Hearts?

[Ill Ray]

7 minutes ago, Forever_blueco said:

I can see your point but I’m just putting my opinion out there that given resources Aberdeen , Hibs and Hearts would most likely become Scotland’s big 3 . Right now at their peak they can attract around 20, 000 when all is going as well as can be. With regular titles , cups and European football all 3 of those teams could easily extend to teams which could attract 30 - 40 000 in my opinion over time of continued and much more regular success . Wether they would want that influx of glory hunters is another thing 

Even still having a top 3 is better than a top 2. It’s progress. Hearts haven’t been too well run in the past and have lacked a lot of stability i.e their relegations. Aberdeen and Hibs have also had their bad seasons. There’s definitely room for other clubs to be opportunistic in they circumstances and we’d see varied winners. 

[ahemps]

1 minute ago, Forever_blueco said:

I can see your point but I’m just putting my opinion out there that given resources Aberdeen , Hibs and Hearts would most likely become Scotland’s big 3 . Right now at their peak they can attract around 20, 000 when all is going as well as can be. With regular titles , cups and European football all 3 of those teams could easily extend to teams which could attract 30 - 40 000 in my opinion over time of continued and much more regular success . Wether they would want that is another thing 

I agree with your point as well, I just don't see it being as extreme as we currently have.

Again I partially agree, successful clubs will see an increase in attendance, that's a given as it has been proven but all these clubs have a fanbase that is made up of local people or people with local/family connections. Culturally right now is acceptable to live in Inverness, Peterhead, Glenrothes, Alloa, Irvine etc. and support the old firm, because everyone else does. I don't think that level of support could be created again to other clubs. It would be extremely rare from someone from Ayrshire to follow Aberdeen because they are winning because in theory in a competitive league Killie 'should' be seeing the occasional cup win and league challenge so that pull wouldn't be there like it currently is for Rangers and Celtic. 

[Forever_blueco]

9 minutes ago, ahemps said:

I agree with your point as well, I just don't see it being as extreme as we currently have.

Again I partially agree, successful clubs will see an increase in attendance, that's a given as it has been proven but all these clubs have a fanbase that is made up of local people or people with local/family connections. Culturally right now is acceptable to live in Inverness, Peterhead, Glenrothes, Alloa, Irvine etc. and support the old firm, because everyone else does. I don't think that level of support could be created again to other clubs. It would be extremely rare from someone from Ayrshire to follow Aberdeen because they are winning because in theory in a competitive league Killie 'should' be seeing the occasional cup win and league challenge so that pull wouldn't be there like it currently is for Rangers and Celtic. 

Didn’t Aberdeen get a slight uptake of central belt supporters in their 80s heyday ?  
 

just a sad act of football that where success is glory hunters will latch on. 
 

I understand that Aberdeen , hibs and hearts have bad seasons but the whole dynamic of their club would change as they would be in the best position to grab the power And opportunity  of continuously winning and challenging for titles and qualifying for Europe . They would be attracting the best players and highest wages to the league and eventually that would become the Norm and the gap would naturally open up.  
 

Again as I said  this would come down to them being run well if such a scenario ever came to be.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Forever_blueco