Russian invasion of Ukraine

[MazzyStar]

3 hours ago, TxRover said:

The ugly reality of corruption worldwide is that the relative lack of corruption in the so called First World is the exception, rather than the rule. Ukraine made tied for 116th of 180 in the 2020-2022 ranking, Russia tied at 137th…so there’s not that much between them. It’s a depressing fact that the rest of the world sees our standards of living and many are willing to do damn near anything to try to reach that level. There are some interesting outliers, like Bhutan at tied for 25th, one spot behind the U.S., or Uruguay tied at 14th, a spot in front of the UK tied at 18th.

This map of the corruption perceptions index is useful:

 

That map is hilarious. Straight out of Langley, Virginia. 

[TxRover]

3 hours ago, MazzyStar said:

That map is hilarious. Straight out of Langley, Virginia. 

Doubt Langley would have the U.S. at 24th…

[LongTimeLurker]

9 hours ago, ICTChris said:

Reports of a Ukrainian counter attack in Bakhmut.

Mainly from Poles by the looks of things:

 

No prizes for guessing what chuja means in Polish.

[welshbairn]

Igor's take on the special military operation so far, lions led by donkeys basically.

 

[MazzyStar]

9 hours ago, TxRover said:

Doubt Langley would have the U.S. at 24th…

The corruption perceptions index was published by Transparency International. 

This is who funds Transparency International:

According to its 2012 Annual Report, it is funded by western governments (with almost €5 million from the UK government) and several multinational companies, including oil companies Exxon Mobil and Shell, hedge funds KKR and Wermuth Asset Management, Deloitte and Ernst & Young. 
 

Looks like TI has some internal corruption to investigate. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by MazzyStar

[vikingTON]

18 hours ago, welshbairn said:

What would you suggest the Western democracies now do, given the situation that current exists and not going back in time to correct mistakes you no doubt think were made?  

It's not incumbent on Western democracies or indeed anyone else to solve the problem of Ukrainian corruption. They should however be clear-eyed about that reality instead of pretending that waving a hand and shouting 'freedom!' will make those problems disappear. 

[TxRover]

4 hours ago, MazzyStar said:

The corruption perceptions index was published by Transparency International. 

This is who funds Transparency International:

According to its 2012 Annual Report, it is funded by western governments (with almost €5 million from the UK government) and several multinational companies, including oil companies Exxon Mobil and Shell, hedge funds KKR and Wermuth Asset Management, Deloitte and Ernst & Young. 
 

Looks like TI has some internal corruption to investigate. 

So a publicly published ranking, with fully shown calculations, is automatically corrupt? Do tell, please, what falsehoods you see in the calculations.

[LongTimeLurker]

Plenty of skepticism about the alleged Bakhmut counteroffensive:

Suspect it's only a matter of time until the Ukrainians pull out of Bakhmut and the only angle that's liable to slow things down is the weather moving to above zero temperatures and the mud that brings.

[MazzyStar]

2 hours ago, TxRover said:

So a publicly published ranking, with fully shown calculations, is automatically corrupt? Do tell, please, what falsehoods you see in the calculations.

It’s not going to rank western countries high on the corruption scale since they are the ones funding it. The US should not be as high as 24 (when 1 is the least corrupt) on any corruption index and any non biased would have ranked the US as much more corrupt. 

[TxRover]

19 minutes ago, MazzyStar said:

It’s not going to rank western countries high on the corruption scale since they are the ones funding it. The US should not be as high as 24 (when 1 is the least corrupt) on any corruption index and any non biased would have ranked the US as much more corrupt. 

OK, and back to my question:

So a publicly published ranking, with fully shown calculations, is automatically corrupt? Do tell, please, what falsehoods you see in the calculations.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Plenty of skepticism about the alleged Bakhmut counteroffensive:

Suspect it's only a matter of time until the Ukrainians pull out of Bakhmut and the only angle that's liable to slow things down is the weather moving to above zero temperatures and the mud that brings.

Igor thinks they'll be trying to push South to put a wedge in the Donbass/Crimea bridge, while Wagner and the rest of the Russkies keep bashing their heads on Bakhmut, for little purpose.

[MazzyStar]

2 minutes ago, TxRover said:

OK, and back to my question:

So a publicly published ranking, with fully shown calculations, is automatically corrupt? Do tell, please, what falsehoods you see in the calculations.

I just said. It’s biased nonsense. 

[TxRover]

1 minute ago, MazzyStar said:

I just said. It’s biased nonsense. 

Well, stomping your feet and crying it’s bad isn’t the answer…

…back to my question:

So a publicly published ranking, with fully shown calculations, is automatically corrupt? Do tell, please, what falsehoods you see in the calculations.

[MazzyStar]

[TxRover]

Just now, MazzyStar said:

OK, so you can make an unsubstantiated statement alleging the rankings are biased, but when asked for the evidence, you don’t have any. Makes sense.

[welshbairn]

16 minutes ago, TxRover said:

 

Well, stomping your feet and crying it’s bad isn’t the answer…

…back to my question:

So a publicly published ranking, with fully shown calculations, is automatically corrupt? Do tell, please, what falsehoods you see in the calculations.

The fact that they use private consultancies, businesses and think tanks to gauge their corruption perception index and ignore the general public leaves room for skewed findings. They don't count tax fraud as corruption for instance. Exxon are hardly likely to perceive the US Government as corrupt when it's been their lobbyists doing the corrupting. 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by welshbairn

[MazzyStar]

1 minute ago, TxRover said:

OK, so you can make an unsubstantiated statement alleging the rankings are biased, but when asked for the evidence, you don’t have any. Makes sense.

You done yet? It’s clearly not an unsubstantiated statement, the evidence is right there. Not only does Transparency International receive money from western governments and corporations it was also founded by ex world bank employees, so it clearly has colluded with western governments at some point, which is why the US and it’s allies are favourably ranked. 

[TxRover]

17 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Igor thinks they'll be trying to push South to put a wedge in the Donbass/Crimea bridge, while Wagner and the rest of the Russkies keep bashing their heads on Bakhmut, for little purpose.

The Volnovakha hub is already under fire whenever the Ukrainians desire, being about 20 miles from the current front line in the Vuhledar area, which allows the HIMARS to interdict H20 at will from a sufficient distance from the front. The true target to cut off Crimea is M14, the costal roadway that runs through Mariupol. The front is currently 60 miles from Mariupol, so they would need to close at least half that difference to allow HIMARS the ability to safely interdict the roadway…so perhaps a feint toward Volnovakha to draw Russian forces to the area and then a drive to the sea?

As a bonus, getting to the area of Mariupol would put the Kerch bridge within the 150 mile range of some of the newer weapons Ukraine has received.

[TxRover]

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

The fact that they use private consultancies and think tanks to gauge their corruption perception index and ignore the general public leaves room for skewed findings. They don't count tax fraud as corruption for instance.

 

I agree there are concerns, somI asked Mazzy which stats he disagreed with and why…his answer is…

 

2 minutes ago, MazzyStar said:

You done yet? It’s clearly not an unsubstantiated statement, the evidence is right there. Not only does Transparency International receive money from western governments and corporations it was also founded by ex world bank employees, so it clearly has colluded with western governments at some point, which is why the US and it’s allies are favourably ranked. 

…because…

Once again, identify the ranking issue you feel is incorrect, and why. Not including tax fraud is not a basis to discount the whole thing, but is a matter to consider. Show a clear error in the numbers and ranking, please. It’s easy to say “they rank them too high”, but with the numbers published you then have to show why those numbers are wrong rather than stomping your feet and saying they are. Just post an authoritative data source that shows they fudged the numbers, that’s what I’m asking, then you’ve made your point easily.

[MazzyStar]

I simply do not care enough about Transparency International and corruption indexes to keep this going. I’m sure there are plenty of sources that prove the US is a very corrupt country but I just can’t be bothered looking.