The Queen of the South thread

[weeredbook]

When you consider that the youngsters in the squad will be on next to nothing .Our budget must be around the lowest in the league.

[Skyline Drifter]

2 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

 What I find more depressing though is the lack of quality coming up through our youth set-up.

I'll probably miss someone but:-

Gibson
Burns
McShane
Reilly
Holt

are the only 5 I can think of off the top of my head who've come through our youth ranks and went on to play for bigger clubs. It's not a great return in over 15 years. One every 5 years?

(I didn't include Dan. I know he went through our system but he was technically brought in rather than promoted).

 

Dan Carmichael (he went through our system. Dont see why going away and coming back changes that)

Grant Hanley

Denny Johnstone

Aaron Muirhead

Josh Todd (if you consider fringe at St Mirren 'bigger')

Ross Hyslop

Ryan McGuffie if you go back far enough. Colin McMenamin too I think.

I actually dont think thats a bad return at all considering the size of population we are working with, the size of our Academy and indeed the level we play at ourselves which limits your definition of "bigger". 

We score well above our expected status in the SFA MPO rankings for Club Academy.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Skyline Drifter

[19QOS19]

Dan Carmichael (he went through our system. Dont see why going away and coming back changes that)
Grant Hanley
Denny Johnstone
Aaron Muirhead
Ross Hyslop
Ryan McGuffie if you go back far enough. Colin McMenamin too I think.
I actually dont think thats a bad return at all considering the size of population we are working with, the size of our Academy and indeed the level we play at ourselves which limits your definition of "bigger". 
We score well above our expected status in the SFA MPO rankings for Club Academy.

Re. Carmichael it was more about players being promoted from the 20's to our first team, which is the point I was making. The ones you've listed only makes it more depressing; why did we never get to see them for our first team? The whole point of a youth set-up is surely to benefit our actual first team or at least bring us in a decent amount of cash.

McGuffie and McMenamin of course featured for us but you could argue we didn't really get them at their peak (even though both were good players for us).

[Dumfries Boy(new acc)]

9 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Dan Carmichael (he went through our system. Dont see why going away and coming back changes that)

Grant Hanley

Denny Johnstone

Aaron Muirhead

Ross Hyslop

Ryan McGuffie if you go back far enough. Colin McMenamin too I think.

 

Think he was meaning players that came through our youth into first team

Hanley and Johnstone both left pretty young I believe.Unsure about Muirhead and doesn't hyslop play for Dalbeattie or someone now? Hardly a success unless I have the wrong one 

[Skyline Drifter]

9 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

Re. Carmichael it was more about players being promoted from the 20's to our first team, which is the point I was making. The ones you've listed only makes it more depressing; why did we never get to see them for our first team? The whole point of a youth set-up is surely to benefit our actual first team or at least bring us in a decent amount of cash.

McGuffie and McMenamin of course featured for us but you could argue we didn't really get them at their peak (even though both were good players for us).
 

 

 

Are you under the impression you can lock kids in for years? You cant stop them leaving if they want to and we get limited grant funding from the SFA for their achievements through the MPO system. Celtic also paid a fee for Denny Johnstone when he went there at 14.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Skyline Drifter

[NM_1919]

Think he was meaning players that came through our youth into first team
Hanley and Johnstone both left pretty young I believe.Unsure about Muirhead and doesn't hyslop play for Dalbeattie or someone now? Hardly a success unless I have the wrong one 

Hanley was barely at queens. Sure he left just into secondary school and went to Crewe. Hyslop was there throughout, but doesn't play anymore due to injuries

[Skyline Drifter]

2 minutes ago, Dumfries Boy(new acc) said:

Think he was meaning players that came through our youth into first team

Hanley and Johnstone both left pretty young I believe.Unsure about Muirhead and doesn't hyslop play for Dalbeattie or someone now? Hardly a success unless I have the wrong one 

Hyslop played for Scunthorpe though and was on tbe books at Motherwell too. Injury killed his career. Dont think he plays at all now. His knee wont take it but he was a right good prospect at one time.

[Skyline Drifter]

4 minutes ago, NM_1919 said:

Hanley was barely at queens. Sure he left just into secondary school and went to Crewe. Hyslop was there throughout, but doesn't play anymore due to injuries

 

Hanley had a year or two with us I believe. He either didnt officially join Crewe at that age or the rules have changed since. You cant change countries as a youth until 16 years old unless your family actually move for non football reasons or you live within 50km of the Border and so is the club you join, which isnt the case with Crewe clearly.

Hanley went to the Irish Milk Cup with our youths and he would have been 14 or 15 then.

[Hawk]

6 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Hyslop played for Scunthorpe though and was on tbe books at Motherwell too. Injury killed his career. Dont think he plays at all now. His knee wont take it but he was a right good prospect at one time.

Nice kid just a shame about his father. Good lad as I said.

[19QOS19]

Are you under the impression you can lock kids in for years? You cant stop them leaving if they want to and we get limited grant funding from the SFA gor their achievements through the MPO system. Celtic also paid a fee for Denny Johnstone when he went there at 14.

No I'm aware no such thing exists and the lure of bigger clubs is always going to be a problem even at a young age. You seem to have taken what I've said as some kind of pop at our youth set-up which it absolutely isn't supposed to be.

Perhaps I'm naive (and I'm certainly selfish) but as a fan of QoS my only wish for the youngsters on our books is for them to at some point appear for our first team and be a success even if it's for a season or two. From then on I'd wish them all the best in the same way I did Holt, McShane and Reilly.

I've no desire to see our youth academy produce good players only for them to bypass our first team and go elsewhere. Again, I know bigger clubs may well be a lure and of course the coaches want to see the boys go as far as they can but as a selfish fan I want our first team to benefit from our youth set up.

[Skyline Drifter]

3 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

What I find more depressing though is the lack of quality coming up through our youth set-up.

I'll probably miss someone but:-

Gibson
Burns
McShane
Reilly
Holt

are the only 5 I can think of off the top of my head who've come through our youth ranks and went on to play for bigger clubs. It's not a great return in over 15 years. One every 5 years?

Again, not at those who runs our youth set-up just more an observation that something isn't really working.

 

 

32 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

You seem to have taken what I've said as some kind of pop at our youth set-up which it absolutely isn't supposed to be.

Perhaps I'm naive (and I'm certainly selfish) but as a fan of QoS my only wish for the youngsters on our books is for them to at some point appear for our first team and be a success even if it's for a season or two. From then on I'd wish them all the best in the same way I did Holt, McShane and Reilly.

I've no desire to see our youth academy produce good players only for them to bypass our first team and go elsewhere. Again, I know bigger clubs may well be a lure and of course the coaches want to see the boys go as far as they can but as a selfish fan I want our first team to benefit from our youth set up.

 

Yes I did take it as a pop at our youth system. To be honest I cant really see how you could interpret your first post as anything but a pop at it? "depressing lack of quality coming through", "not a great return for 15 years", "something isnt really working". This is you NOT having a pop? Glad you didnt feel the need to criticise it!

Like I said, you cant make youngsters stay and you cant make them sign professionally either. There are ways to ensure you are compensated if they move on but there is a fine line between freezing kids out of the game which does nobody any good and ensuring everybody benefits. Kids fall out with coaches and move on. Reilly joined us from Rangers then left us again for Carlisle United after a while. He came back after 2 or 3 months and the rest is history. 

Whats your solution? Do we just stop with youth academy because some players will move on elsewhere when dont want them to? Youths are protected to stop clubs exploiting them. Once they turn 15 you can retain them for two years without their agreement if you really want to but if they really want to leave they can appeal to the SFA and whats the point of forcing a child to stay if he doesnt want to be there? Prior to 15 clubs have no ability to keep kids from year to year. After 17 you cant make them sign professional though you are entitled to be compensated if they sign elsewhere instead.

Of course Project Brave is going to change our youth setup anyway so who knows where we will end up? Not in Club Academy as it currently operates anyway.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Skyline Drifter

[outsider]

26 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Hanley had a year or two with us I believe. He either didnt officially join Crewe at that age or the rules have changed since. You cant change countries as a youth until 16 years old unless your family actually move for non football reasons or you live within 50km of the Border and so is the club you join, which isnt the case with Crewe clearly.

Hanley went to the Irish Milk Cup with our youths and he would have been 14 or 15 then.

Hanley was born in November 1991 he was in the Queens youth set up but moved to join Crewe youths in 2004, he then moved to Rangers academy in 2006 and in 2008 he joined Blackburn Rovers.

Are you sure he was 14 or 15 when he went to the Milk Cup and was it with Queens?

[19QOS19]

Yes I did take it as a pop at our youth system. To be honest I cant really see how you could interpret your first post as anything but a pop at it? "depressing lack of quality coming through", "not a great return for 15 years", "something isnt really working". This is you NOT having a pop? Glad you didnt feel the need to criticise it!
Like I said, you cant make youngsters stay and you cant make them sign professionally either. There are ways to ensure you are compensated if they move on but there is a fine line between freezing kids out of the game which does nobody any good and ensuring everybody benefits. Kids fall out with coaches and move on. Reilly joined us from Rangers then left us again for Carlisle United after a while. He came back after 2 or 3 months and the rest is history. 
Whats your solution? Do we just stop with youth academy because some players will move on elsewhere when dont want them to? Youths are protected to stop clubs exploiting them. Once they turn 15 you can retain them for two years without their agreement if you really want to but if they really want to leave they can appeal to the SFA and whats the point of forcing a child to stay if he doesnt want to be there? Prior to 15 clubs have no ability to keep kids from year to year. After 17 you cant make them sign professional though you are entitled to be compensated if they sign elsewhere instead.
Of course Project Brave is going to change our youth setup anyway so who knows where we will end up? Not in Club Academy as it currently operates anyway.

Perhaps I could have worded it better but the point was in reference to players coming through to our first team.

It's clearly been a great system for the successful players you listed but that didn't benefit us did it? In response to "What's your solution?" - that's pretty much my question. What can be done to see an increase in youngsters featuring for our first team? I certainly don't have any answers and it's certainly frustrating when a former youth player of ours has captained our national side yet never featured for our own first team.


"Do we just stop with youth academy because some players will move on elsewhere when dont want them to?"

I've picked out this bit. I understand you won't be able to disclose figures but I assume we make some kind of return on youth players even if they haven't featured. Hypothetically (and I use that word strongly), if we went 4/5 years without a youth player making the breakthrough to our first team or at the very least receiving any development fees would it be worth keeping our youth set up?

[Dumfries Boy(new acc)]

On another topic,Did jake pickard ever find a club?

Or Rigg?

Edited July 13, 2017 by Dumfries Boy(new acc)

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Dumfries Boy(new acc) said:

On another topic,Did jake pickard ever find a club?

Or Rigg?

Jake Pickard (& Rhys Evans) both joined Washington FC when they left us. As far as I know they are still there. Both still listed on their website anyway but it may still be last years squad.

Steven Rigg isnt fit yet following his cruciate surgery so he hasnt got a club at the moment. He presumably isnt far away now, he did it in November.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Skyline Drifter

[Skyline Drifter]

On 7/30/2014 at 19:41, qosphotos said:

2005/06 Milk Cup Squad

 

 

Back row left to right: N Torriani, E Lindsey, M Smith, N Higgins, L Walker, R Hyslop, I Cairnie, D Hanley, D Rae

Front row left to right: T Hanley (Coach), R Adamson, B McGauchie, P Leighfield, A Muirhead, N Muirhead (Coach), R Steele, J Nixon, M McGinley, D Carmichael, G Hyslop (Coach)

Missing from picture: G Mitchell and D Rice, also coaches F Smith and D McCann

From www.qosarchive.co.uk

From earlier in the thread. Dan Carmichael, Aaron Muirhead, Ross Hyslop and Grant Hanley (wrongly labeled as D Hanley) in the summer 2005 Milk Cup squad.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Skyline Drifter

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, outsider said:

Hanley was born in November 1991 he was in the Queens youth set up but moved to join Crewe youths in 2004, he then moved to Rangers academy in 2006 and in 2008 he joined Blackburn Rovers.

Are you sure he was 14 or 15 when he went to the Milk Cup and was it with Queens?

Summer 05 per photo above so would actually have been before he turned 14. 

I dont think he officially left us when he first went to Crewe. Not sure what tbe rules were then but he wouldnt be allowed to join them at that age now.

Wasnt conscious he had been at Rangers though. Thought he had gone direct Crewe to Blackburn.

[palmy_cammy]

It's a very niche area; players that are good enough for our first team, but won't draw the attention of bigger clubs.  Big clubs are always out to sign up "potential" and football players are always likely to move to the bigger club.  It's not anyone in particulars fault, it's just where we are in the food chain.

I think we would be able to bring through plenty more youth players if we were the only full-time team in a part time second division.  I think this was a major contributory factor in the development of Holt etc.

Just like anything, I'm sure there are things we could do better but having a youth setup at all is a positive.  I'm sure the reason Dan Carmichael left us for Gretna was because he reached an age where we didn't have a youth team for that age group and he had nowhere to go with us.

As previously mentioned, I like the changes being made to the U20s training this season.  That sounds like a very positive step that should make integrating any that are ready for the first team a much smoother transition.

[NM_1919]

Ideally you'd want a couple of players every year. You could basically count Connor Murray as a success, then you'd be hoping Owen bell or Jesse Akubeine (who's been pretty impressive during pre season) kick on. Not sure if Ross fergusson has actually signed or not yet?

But then next year your hoping for another couple from this new crop to come in. Tbh I think Naysmith is giving them a better chance with the training being similar, and sending them out on loan, it's making them mature faster and was always something I thought queens should've been doing before. I'm hoping it happens again this year and boys at least get lowland league football out of it.

Can moan about teams taking our local youth but not much can be done as SD said. But there has bound to be times we have benefited from it, it's something we should be looking at, local boys leaving bigger clubs.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, palmy_cammy said:

I'm sure the reason Dan Carmichael left us for Gretna was because he reached an age where we didn't have a youth team for that age group and he had nowhere to go with us.

Dan Carmichael didn't leave us for Gretna. He went to Workington and played there for a season before he moved to Gretna. I've no idea why he left though and if it was related to age football at the time. It may have been.