The Queen of the South thread

[Biblemaster]

To sum up my thoughts :

"I'm assuming the experienced player who let him down by trying to step out of defence and play a risky ball was Efe Ambrose?  The thing is, Efe Ambrose has been doing this for years, he used to do it playing against Lionel Messi, to ask him now not to take any risks in case it gives Ally Roy a chance is just ridiculous!"

If anyone would like to read my fuller thoughts, I've put them Here... http://www.qosfan.co.uk/report.php?Date=2023-11-11 15:00:00

[Nithsdale Wanderer]

 

Three homes games and seven points out of nine have changed the mood at McDiarmid Park since Steven MacLean vacated the manager's seat.

While it doesn't always come off, St Johnstone have looked noticeably more forward thinking since the club legend departed.

Less scared of making a mistake, more roused by the challenge of staying in the division. After this battling win, they move off the bottom for the first time since 2 September.

The above taken from BBCSPORTSCOTLAND.   

As it says , it doesn't always come .off but in reading that I couldn't help think of the parallells to our situation - although thankfully we are not at the bottom of the pile.

The phrases " more forward thinking "  and " less scared of making a mistake " resonated and - given our dismal Home record - the prospect of "three home games and seven points out of nine"  is very appealing to say the least.

Like most, I want the current Manager to turn things around and bring the fans some cheer, especially at Home , but it just looks and feels like that is not going to happen.

I am sure St.Johnstone fans wanted McLean to succeed but it clearly wasn't working and they plumbed the depths in what turned out to be his last game and looked to be in a desperate situation.

Who - and where - is our 'Craig Levein' ?

 

 

 

[Otis Blue]

2 hours ago, Jan Vojáček said:

It amazes me how many people don't understand this. If you're working for club media then you can't ask the same questions you'd ask as an independent reporter. More often than not the club media questions are agreed before the interview with the boss too.

Club media's job is to provide PR on behalf of the club.

^^^ Absolutely this.  I don't watch the post match interviews on QOS TV now ... that's not an indictment of Sandra or Marvin, but within the understood but not stated rules of engagement we know what can't be asked and what won't be said

[Greenacres]

2 hours ago, HighlandQueen said:

I agree. I find him intelligent, engaging and professional. 
 

in his interview yesterday he did miss the point though. Why go to three at the back, start negatively, play out ponderously in triangles to marked men and then after being a goal down bring on 4 attackers. 

it was a brutal watch and the fans are really really unhappy. 
 

Let’s get on the front foot and attack teams from the off and entertain if nothing else. 

He quite rightly talks about doing the simple things well. I’m just not sure that we have players capable of playing to his system. 
 

Our season has been disastrous so far and so he has to change our results in the next few weeks or circumstances will overtake him. 

it’s a five hour round trip for me to go to Palmerston and at the minute it’s a difficult choice to sacrifice my entire Saturday to watch that boring dross. I’ve paid my 450 quid sponsors money so don’t feel guilty but I just want to have a Saturday night that isn’t ruined for a change! 
 

 

I really like Marvin as well he seemed at the time to be a good appointment but it is sadly not working the way everyone hoped.

Think his problem is think to much about the game plan and who we are playing .

We played well against Falkirk so don't change anything get the same 11 players together tell them you want exactly the same effort and performance .

The defence did well against Falkirk so don't change anything but Marv decided to go 3 at the back have 2 right backs on the bench play a left back as a centre half have our right winger as a wing back then the left back who had a really good game last week as a wing back .

Why change the goalkeeper as well Botterill must be wondering why the hell he was left out  

Think Marv over thinks his game plan it is clearly not working .

It is a massive decision to sack him it will cost us a fortune to get rid but we are  heading for  League 2 if no change is made .

 

[Greenacres]

27 minutes ago, Nithsdale Wanderer said:

 

Three homes games and seven points out of nine have changed the mood at McDiarmid Park since Steven MacLean vacated the manager's seat.

While it doesn't always come off, St Johnstone have looked noticeably more forward thinking since the club legend departed.

Less scared of making a mistake, more roused by the challenge of staying in the division. After this battling win, they move off the bottom for the first time since 2 September.

The above taken from BBCSPORTSCOTLAND.   

As it says , it doesn't always come .off but in reading that I couldn't help think of the parallells to our situation - although thankfully we are not at the bottom of the pile.

The phrases " more forward thinking "  and " less scared of making a mistake " resonated and - given our dismal Home record - the prospect of "three home games and seven points out of nine"  is very appealing to say the least.

Like most, I want the current Manager to turn things around and bring the fans some cheer, especially at Home , but it just looks and feels like that is not going to happen.

I am sure St.Johnstone fans wanted McLean to succeed but it clearly wasn't working and they plumbed the depths in what turned out to be his last game and looked to be in a desperate situation.

Who - and where - is our 'Craig Levein' ?

 

 

 

Our Craig Levein  is Iain McCall who has the experience to get us out of this.

He made both Ayr and Partick far better teams but most of all it was him who signed Stephen Dobbie for us again. 

[Distant Doonhamer]

1 hour ago, Otis Blue said:

^^^ Absolutely this.  I don't watch the post match interviews on QOS TV now ... that's not an indictment of Sandra or Marvin, but within the understood but not stated rules of engagement we know what can't be asked and what won't be said

To be fair to Sandra she does ask him if he thinks he can get out of this ( or words to that effect). Now it may be that they agreed she would ask this to allow him to respond but the issue is raised. She doesn’t press the issue though. 
For all the interview is largely a rehash of all too familiar themes Bartley doesn’t, to me, come across as someone who has given up. Credit to him for that but sadly I just can’t see how he can turn this around. 

 

1 hour ago, Otis Blue said:

Edited November 12, 2023 by Distant Doonhamer

[19QOS19]

24 minutes ago, Artemis said:

As soon as managers start the “individual errors/mistakes” chat you know you’ve had it. If they genuinely believe that is the only thing that is wrong it means they think their methods would be working fine if it wasn’t for the players making an arse of it.

Tbf, how many times have individual errors cost us? It seems to be frequent for us. The number of times basic defending isn't done is ridiculous. I can mind feeling positive after the the first Falkirk game because we lost to a peach rather than us doing our usual of gifting the opposition a goal. I can see how it can be frustrating as a manager because it's extremely Infuriating as a fan. 

Having said that, the buck stops with the manager as he assembled the squad. 

[Rjc-1988]

3 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

Tbf, how many times have individual errors cost us? It seems to be frequent for us. The number of times basic defending isn't done is ridiculous. I can mind feeling positive after the the first Falkirk game because we lost to a peach rather than us doing our usual of gifting the opposition a goal. I can see how it can be frustrating as a manager because it's extremely Infuriating as a fan. 

Having said that, the buck stops with the manager as he assembled the squad. 

Yes individual errors cost us but how few chances are we actually creating - one decent chance yesterday. Our goals for column tells the story - it is abysmal for a FT outfit in L1.

 

[sidofthesouth]

48 minutes ago, Artemis said:

As soon as managers start the “individual errors/mistakes” chat you know you’ve had it. If they genuinely believe that is the only thing that is wrong it means they think their methods would be working fine if it wasn’t for the players making an arse of it.

Spot on

[sidofthesouth]

2 hours ago, Greenacres said:

Our Craig Levein  is Iain McCall who has the experience to get us out of this.

He made both Ayr and Partick far better teams but most of all it was him who signed Stephen Dobbie for us again. 

McCall is the obvious choice, but not sure he would come back if offered 

[Fae_the_'briggs]

Yesterday there seemed to be a reluctance for players to take a chance and act on their own initiative. One instance (of many) that had me beelin, was when Fergusson got the ball at the edge of the centre circle in Alloa's half with acres of space in front of him, but instead of driving forward he played the ball wide and the momentum was lost. Young players are maybe too scared to try things in case they make mistakes. 

[19QOS19]

39 minutes ago, Rjc-1988 said:

Yes individual errors cost us but how few chances are we actually creating - one decent chance yesterday. Our goals for column tells the story - it is abysmal for a FT outfit in L1.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Artemis said:

I’m not saying when managers start that chat that there aren’t individual errors. The point is that they always seem to think that’s the only thing that is wrong. Bartley’s interviews always seem to emphasise things like “they were told…” like none of it is his fault, before he sometimes goes on to say “I’m responsible because I pick the team” which is kind of still blaming the players.
There is no excuse for players not doing their job but Bartley never seems to think there is anything wrong with what he’s done, other than picking the players who made the mistakes.
 

I'm not arguing that everything else is rosy. I just think him stating individuals errors are costing us is a very fair point and sadly it's the reality. Been very few times where teams have worked hard to break us down and get a goal. Even when we defend well we seem to always absolutely gift the opposition a guilt edged chance. It must be very frustrating from a coaching point of view. 

The rest is still shit though. 

[Slipmat]

23 minutes ago, Fae_the_'briggs said:

Yesterday there seemed to be a reluctance for players to take a chance and act on their own initiative. One instance (of many) that had me beelin, was when Fergusson got the ball at the edge of the centre circle in Alloa's half with acres of space in front of him, but instead of driving forward he played the ball wide and the momentum was lost. Young players are maybe too scared to try things in case they make mistakes. 

This.  Definitely this.

Football is played on a pitch, not a tactics board.  Bartley seems to be so hung up on the players following his instructions to the letter that he is actually stifling any creativity during the game.  Maybe this explains why he has gone down the route of assembling what is basically an under-23s squad containing players who haven't been exposed to a variety of coaching methods.   

In my opinion it is almost definitely the reason why creative players like Gibson and Walker who have the ability and vision to spot a pass, create space  or take a man on rather than playing the ball sideways to the nearest team-mate are getting so little game time.

Bartley's interviews do reveal that he has no time for individuality or unpredictability, and that there is a bit of control freakery in his management style.

[Otis Blue]

43 minutes ago, sidofthesouth said:

McCall is the obvious choice, but not sure he would come back if offered 

This is crying out for an experienced manager who can spot a "player" and recognise each player's natural best position - ie the basics of management.  So McCall certainly fits that bill as we know (his role in Dobbie's revival from the wilderness is testament to that), trouble is that I get the feeling that McCall can be something of a maverick himself and difficult to manage from a BOD's perspective.  Wee John Robertson might fit the bill (recently left his role at Inverness) but I think he may have relocated his family up to the Highlands these days and may not fancy the geographical situation, and did he not have a health/stress issue fairly recently?

Like many others, this troubles me because I really wanted this to work out for Marvin (I like the guy) - but he's clearly on a big learning curve of his own and given our current predicament (a relegation battle beckons) I don't think we can accommodate this learning curve much more - and as others have said on here, he doesn't appear to be "in listening/learning mode" (ie why tamper with the team/structure that performed well against Falkirk).

[19QOS19]

17 minutes ago, Slipmat said:

This.  Definitely this.

Football is played on a pitch, not a tactics board.  Bartley seems to be so hung up on the players following his instructions to the letter that he is actually stifling any creativity during the game.  Maybe this explains why he has gone down the route of assembling what is basically an under-23s squad containing players who haven't been exposed to a variety of coaching methods.   

In my opinion it is almost definitely the reason why creative players like Gibson and Walker who have the ability and vision to spot a pass, create space  or take a man on rather than playing the ball sideways to the nearest team-mate are getting so little game time.

Bartley's interviews do reveal that he has no time for individuality or unpredictability, and that there is a bit of control freakery in his management style.

Walker probably enjoys being benched given the less he plays the more folk think he's anything other than a pacy mediocre player tbh. I do get your point of course but other than one game Walker is the definition of "flatters to deceive". He spends more time on the deck than doing anything creatively. 

[Fae_the_'briggs]

On the face of it a 1 - 0 loss away to Alloa, the goal coming mainly courtesy of a very experienced player dithering on the ball and losing it, doesn't sound too bad, we are quite used to losing up there tbf, the issue is the difference in tactics, attitude and workrate from the previous week. Against Falkirk it was a real team effort, players getting tackles in early, plenty of running, looking to get involved and help each other out, yesterday it was like the three sections of the  team, defence, midfield and attack, didn't have much of a clue what the other lot was thinking or doing. It looked at times like they didn't know what the game plan was and if so that lies squarely at the Manager's door. True, he can't legislate for player's errors but to go from the high of last week to the dross of yesterday, something is not right. 

[Distant Doonhamer]

18 minutes ago, Fae_the_'briggs said:

 to go from the high of last week to the dross of yesterday, something is not right. 

It says it all that a 1-1 draw at home is viewed as a high.

[stravaigar]

Anyone at the throwing the scarf onto the pitch level of fustration or is that only for fans of big clubs ?  Don't remember ever seeing it done at Palmerston unless it was fans of the away team.

[19QOS19]

1 minute ago, stravaigar said:

Anyone at the throwing the scarf onto the pitch level of fustration or is that only for fans of big clubs ?  Don't remember ever seeing it done at Palmerston unless it was fans of the away team.

Witnessed it once at Palmerston. Two guys left shouting abuse and one threw their scarf onto the pitch. I was quite young so reckon it would have been mid 90's and before the Connolly era. 

Also witnessed one fuckwit storm out while throwing abuse Stevie Tosh. Still reckon he was just some muppet OF fan who had a grudge against Tosh as it was the most bizarre thing I've ever seen. Hadn't seen him at Palmerston before it and haven't since. Given Tosh has been one of if not the best CM we've had this century then it makes his outburst all the more strange. 

[Terry_Tibbs]

Who would have thought Queens would be in danger of being the second best team in the south-west.