The Queen of the South thread

[Rjc-1988]

I succumbed to the temptation of listening to Marvin’s post match interview and although he clearly likes to talk even he is running out of constructive things to say.

There is the usual managerial focus on these cheap goals that we concede but the reality is that we don’t create enough chances and are very low scorers. Last few games managed one counter at Kelty drew a blank at home to both Stirling and Cove (which in itself takes some doing).Created virtually nothing at Annan and somehow scraped an undeserved win. Played well against Falkirk but created virtually nothing today. That is only 3 goals in six matches - it is not defensive errors that are costing us it is our complete inability to get the ball forward quickly and get teams on the back foot that is the overriding issue. How does he realistically expect to win matches if we only score 3 league goals in six matches?That is a pitiful record and supports the view that not only do we keep losing but we are very unattractive to watch.

[Otis Blue]

3 minutes ago, Rjc-1988 said:

... but the reality is that we don’t create enough chances and are very low scorers. Last few games managed one counter at Kelty drew a blank at home to both Stirling and Cove (which in itself takes some doing).Created virtually nothing at Annan and somehow scraped an undeserved win. Played well against Falkirk but created virtually nothing today. That is only 3 goals in six matches - it is not defensive errors that are costing us it is our complete inability to get the ball forward quickly and get teams on the back foot that is the overriding issue. How does he realistically expect to win matches if we only score 3 league goals in six matches?That is a pitiful record and supports the view that not only do we keep losing but we are very unattractive to watch.

Sadly its the totality of it all that's the problem:  errors in defence, lack of bite, speed and creativity in midfield and lack of a cutting edge up front.  That's not a happy situation and it's reflected in the league table which never lies.

We knew we'd be in a learning situation with Marvin and I think we'd give him time and slack to do this if we were comfortable in mid-table or pressing for the promotion play-offs.  However, that time and slack disappears when we find ourselves in a relegation fight.

[queenslad]

This one moment of lack of concentration and losing a goal makes me laugh. It happens more than once a match and we are in danger of losing a goal several times during a match. It's usually due to poor finishing by opposition we don't lose more. The more passes we make in our own back third the more chance there is of a mistake. Make mistakes further up the field then there is more chances for others to recover.

I'd like to know what this game plan is that the players have to stick to so rigidly. I'm guessing it's to keep possession and if you are not on the ball to fall back into space to receive a pass rather than look for the forward pass. Even when a pass in made forward from the back the receiving player in the majority of cases is facing his own goa and can only play it back. All the time the opposition can get their players back to set up their defensive structure.

 

[Fae_the_'briggs]

1 hour ago, Distant Doonhamer said:

It says it all that a 1-1 draw at home is viewed as a high.

It was definitely a high in performance and attitude against the current leaders after a run of defeats. I'm sure pre-Falkirk match quite a few Queens fans were predicting us getting a pummeling.

[Mr Grimsdale]

45 minutes ago, Rjc-1988 said:

I succumbed to the temptation of listening to Marvin’s post match interview and although he clearly likes to talk even he is running out of constructive things to say.

There is the usual managerial focus on these cheap goals that we concede but the reality is that we don’t create enough chances and are very low scorers. Last few games managed one counter at Kelty drew a blank at home to both Stirling and Cove (which in itself takes some doing).Created virtually nothing at Annan and somehow scraped an undeserved win. Played well against Falkirk but created virtually nothing today. That is only 3 goals in six matches - it is not defensive errors that are costing us it is our complete inability to get the ball forward quickly and get teams on the back foot that is the overriding issue. How does he realistically expect to win matches if we only score 3 league goals in six matches?That is a pitiful record and supports the view that not only do we keep losing but we are very unattractive to watch.

He can talk pish for England 

[Distant Doonhamer]

Just now, Fae_the_'briggs said:

It was definitely a high in performance and attitude against the current leaders after a run of defeats. I'm sure pre-Falkirk match quite a few Queens fans were predicting us getting a pummeling.

Yep I understand all of that and don't disagree.

Nevertheless a home draw even against the Falkirk Galacticos being a high just reflects how awful we've been for a very long time now.

 

[Fae_the_'briggs]

1 hour ago, stravaigar said:

Anyone at the throwing the scarf onto the pitch level of fustration or is that only for fans of big clubs ?  Don't remember ever seeing it done at Palmerston unless it was fans of the away team.

I think we're more into booing and then walking away muttering expletive riddled condemnation of players and management under our breath. OR simply choosing not to come back.

[Monkey Tennis]

I actually think that this latest interview is quite revealing.

I think it tells us a lot as to why he's doing so badly in the role.   I think he's getting his approach badly wrong.  He is obviously trying to 'make' players follow his very rigid instructions and it's backfiring because:  a) they're not able to, and b) they're terrified.  

This business of telling us he watches hours and hours of footage to create 15 minute reels of mistakes he tries to address on the training field, actually sounds a bit alarming.  Obviously, there's something valid about the thoroughness, but I doubt if many of our players are really able to benefit from it.  It all sounds so stifling and fearful.  It also sounds as if much less thought is being given to how we might harm teams ourselves, rather than merely sustain damage.

He talks of individuals going off the script, meaning everyone else is thrown.  He appears to take no notice of the dynamic aspects of football matches.

There's something obviously self serving about his focus on individual errors.  It's not just that though.  In saying that players suddenly start trying things after 65 minutes because we've not broken down the opposition yet, it shows that he really is sending them out to be this unattractive as a side.

I worry that he lacks the humility to step away from his 'beliefs' and to pragmatically adjust the approach.

 

Hi sounded like just the right sort of appointment at the time and there were some positive signs last season. 

He's reeking of inexperience though, and I think he's doing it all wrong.  I don't think he'll get sacked just yet, but I honestly don't know where we head from here.

[Slipmat]

41 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

This business of telling us he watches hours and hours of footage to create 15 minute reels of mistakes he tries to address on the training field, actually sounds a bit alarming.  Obviously, there's something valid about the thoroughness, but I doubt if many of our players are really able to benefit from it.  It all sounds so stifling and fearful.  It also sounds as if much less thought is being given to how we might harm teams ourselves, rather than merely sustain damage.

 

It was interesting listening to Darren Young's post-match interview after the Stirling debacle in which he said he studied video footage of our previous game against Kelty and immediately decided to change his usual team formation to a more attack-minded one that would play in a way that,  given how many mistakes our defence was likely to make, and our style of play, they would likely give the ball away if put under constant pressure.

Marvin seems keen on video footage too, but no matter what he sees he generally sticks with the same formation, same personnel, and the same style of play, played at the same pedestrian tempo regardless of who we are playing.  I too would hope that, rather watching repeated clips of ourselves to expose our own players' shortcomings (if a player makes an error, he will know about it without needing to see it again) he and the team would be looking at clips of the next opposition to work out what formation and tempo WE should adopt to hurt teams.  If for example, he identifies that our opponents have a dodgy fullback, use that to our advantage by pitting a tricky player like Gibson up against him instead of a defensive wingback like Houston, Logan, Church or MacIntyre.

It just seems to be all about us and what we do wrong rather than what mistakes we can force the opposition into making with Bartley.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Slipmat

[Riviera711]

There are loads of good posts today, none of them make good reading, unfortunately.

A lot of the discussions appear to point towards what a lot of us will have come across in our own working lives - the young, modern manager who tries to micro-manage everything within their sphere of control/influence. With a bit of experience, some come to realise that if the recruitment is right and the basic strategy is understood and implemented, then a bit of freedom and flexibility really makes a big difference. Unfortunately, there are just as many who think they know best even when the outcomes suggest otherwise.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Riviera711

[CoveRangers1922]

Watched the interview. He does seem very rigid in his philosophy and you can visible see the pressure is mounting on him which in turn he's maybe transferring onto the players? Does he have the quality of players to play the style he's preaching?

It's 5 goals in 9 matches for Queen's in all competitions and haven't scored more than 1 in any of those games. That heaps pressure on the defence too. Marv concentrating too much on keeping it tight and stifling the attacking side?

Certainly underachieving as a group and the number of injuries is a contributing factor. He might still turn it around, needs to start right away you feel.

We were trapped in a similar run and managed to find our way out without looking liked the finished article and likewise with a manager we're less than convinced about.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by CoveRangers1922

[Monkey Tennis]

18 minutes ago, Riviera711 said:

There are loads of good posts today, none of them make good reading, unfortunately.

A lot of the discussions appear to point towards what a lot of us will have come across in our own working lives - the young, modern manager who tries to micro-manage everything within their sphere of control/influence. With a bit of experience, some come to realise that if the recruitment is right and the basic strategy is understood and implemented, then a bit of freedom and flexibility really makes a big difference. Unfortunately, there are just as many who think they know best even when the outcomes suggests otherwise.

Yes, there probably is a good parallel there.

You can imagine him getting this crack at management and really wanting to throw himself at it.  He's worked under managers like Eddie Howe, who can be big, dominant figures at a club, with a good handle on everything that goes on.   His desire to control and dictate things is maybe counterproductive though.  I also think he has a naivety, which perhaps stems from his own decent playing career, which means he thinks telling players to do, or even avoid doing, certain things, should result in that happening. He's finding out at this level, that it doesn't.

Despite how irritating it all is, I feel a bit sorry for him.  It's almost as if he's trying too hard, which sounds like a bit of a crazy criticism to make of a manager, but there's maybe something in it. 

[Katboy]

37 minutes ago, CoveRangers1922 said:

Watched the interview. He does seem very rigid in his philosophy and you can visible see the pressure is mounting on him which in turn he's maybe transferring onto the players? Does he have the quality of players to play the style he's preaching?

It's 5 goals in 9 matches for Queen's in all competitions and haven't scored more than 1 in any of those games. That heaps pressure on the defence too. Marv concentrating too much on keeping it tight and stifling the attacking side?

Certainly underachieving as a group and the number of injuries is a contributing factor. He might still turn it around, needs to start right away you feel.

We were trapped in a similar run and managed to find our way out without looking liked the finished article and likewise with a manager we're less than convinced about.

 

 

He is very rigid in his philosophy.  It's very much his way or no way which is stifling creativity, and individuality is clearly discouraged.  A number of our team seem to be playing with fear.   To answer your question I would say that he doesn't have the players to play the style he is trying to implement.  Its League 1 and we're not Barcelona, the players available at this level generally lack the technical ability.  Yesterday was a very painful watch for those of us who made the trip.  Endless sideways passes followed by an aimless punt up the park is making us predictable and easy to play against.

Injuries have clearly played a part and in some cases have forced his hand to an extent.  However setting up not to lose is not likely to get us out of the mess in which we find ourselves.  Like a number of us I was happy with his appointment and I genuinely want him to do well.  However improvement is urgently needed to halt the decline.  

[Diamonds are Forever]

Watched the interview after reading the comments on here and felt the same as a lot of the posters on here. Any time I watch a Bartley interview he likes to say how he takes responsibility, whilst simultaneously blaming individuals for their errors. It's a real pet hate of mine when managers talk about 'individual errors' - you picked the individual, you asked them to play in a way which resulted in an error, and you picked a team that couldn't score a single goal which meant the error actually mattered. They never discount wins due to 'individual brilliance' obviously, it only works with errors...

The highlighting of these errors is only going to make players play even safer resulting in an even more slow, plodding style of play. We've lost a bunch of goals through giving daft possession away in our own third both last season and this season, but McCabe's comments are always positive towards the player and he genuinely takes responsibility by saying 'I ask them to play that way so it's my fault' etc. You have to accept that at League 1 level players will mess up the basics from time to time no matter how much preparation is done. If the system or tactics mean that these errors are regularly costing you then there are bigger issues that need addressed.

I also found it weird how he spent about half the interview on the one error. Losing 1 goal away to Alloa is more than acceptable and I'd bet if you offered most managers that before a game they'd gladly take it, backing themselves to at least get 1 goal and get a point or get 2 or more. It doesn’t seem like that is the major issue.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Diamonds are Forever

[Rjc-1988]

9 minutes ago, Diamonds are Forever said:

Watched the interview after reading the comments on here and felt the same as a lot of the posters on here. Any time I watch a Bartley interview he likes to say how he takes responsibility, whilst simultaneously blaming individuals for their errors. It's a real pet hate of mine when managers talk about 'individual errors' - you picked the individual, you asked them to play in a way which resulted in an error, and you picked a team that couldn't score a single goal which meant the error actually mattered. They never discount wins due to 'individual brilliance' obviously, it only works with errors...

The highlighting of these errors is only going to make players play even safer resulting in an even more slow, plodding style of play. We've lost a bunch of goals through giving daft possession away in our own third both last season and this season, but McCabe's comments are always positive towards the player and he genuinely takes responsibility by saying 'I ask them to play that way so it's my fault' etc. You have to accept that at League 1 level players will mess up the basics from time to time no matter how much preparation is done. If the system or tactics mean that these errors are regularly costing you then there are bigger issues that need addressed.

I also found it weird how he spent about half the interview on the one error. Losing 1 goal away to Alloa is more than acceptable and I'd bet if you offered most managers that before a game they'd gladly take it, backing themselves to at least get 1 goal and get a point or get 2 or more. It doesn’t seem like that is the major issue.

Exactly - spot on. When I first heard a few of MB’s interviews last season I immediately disliked what I was hearing. The word bullshit springs to mind and the rhetoric is a lot worse now because of the results.

You hit the nail on the head - conceding only one goal away to Alloa, home to Stirling and home to Cove should have given us a great chance of winning all 3 games but we lost the lot because we couldn’t score a solitary goal in any of them. That is sadly not down to individual errors but is collectively down to Managerial incompetence and a group of players who are seriously under-performing or are simply not good enough.

[Adamski]

It's pretty dire. Has there ever been a Queens manager who has presided over a run as bad as this and subsequently managed to turn things around? It's pretty clear how this is going to end up panning out, and cutting losses now means a chance to salvage something from this season.

That said, over the past 5-6 seasons there can't be many teams in Scotland who have:

• Scored fewer points
• Scored fewer goals
• Won fewer games
• Lost more points in the final minutes of games
• Had a larger percentage decline in attendance
• Had a greater decline in the state of their ground

It's a consistent rot that goes far deeper than whichever of Naysmith, Johnston, Gibson, or Bartley was in the dugout, and it feels like the club is sleepwalking its way back to the Harkness era: as others have mentioned a situation you couldn't imagine fans of several comparable clubs being so sanguine about. The 2012 Rangers vote absolutely changed my relationship with Queens: I've never really had the same passion since and still feel so angry that the board did that. As a result I've been hoping for a change in the board for many years, but not since the early 1990s has it felt so necessary.

[Frankie S]

2 hours ago, Adamski said:

It's pretty dire. Has there ever been a Queens manager who has presided over a run as bad as this and subsequently managed to turn things around? It's pretty clear how this is going to end up panning out, and cutting losses now means a chance to salvage something from this season.

That said, over the past 5-6 seasons there can't be many teams in Scotland who have:

• Scored fewer points
• Scored fewer goals
• Won fewer games
• Lost more points in the final minutes of games
• Had a larger percentage decline in attendance
• Had a greater decline in the state of their ground

It's a consistent rot that goes far deeper than whichever of Naysmith, Johnston, Gibson, or Bartley was in the dugout, and it feels like the club is sleepwalking its way back to the Harkness era: as others have mentioned a situation you couldn't imagine fans of several comparable clubs being so sanguine about. The 2012 Rangers vote absolutely changed my relationship with Queens: I've never really had the same passion since and still feel so angry that the board did that. As a result I've been hoping for a change in the board for many years, but not since the early 1990s has it felt so necessary.

I felt the same after the Rangers vote, and particularly after a certain temporary incumbent in the Queens boardroom, apparently a Rangers season ticket holder, characterised (without any sense of irony) those of us who expressed disapproval with our board’s forelock-tugging obsequiousness towards the entity masquerading as the reincarnation of the Govan half of the Old Firm duopoly as ‘not true fans’. It took me several years to venture back to Palmerston after that, having supported the club through (very occasional) thick, but mainly thin and thinner, for more than 40 years prior to that monumental misjudgment.

I eventually gravitated back, because you can’t pick and choose who you support, or at least I can’t, and old loyalties are hard to shake. I also wanted my son to grow up supporting Queens (even though I’d moved away from the area decades ago), rather than one of the Edinburgh teams that surely would have been a more convenient choice, being Leith born and bred. My view was that the board, no matter how strongly I disagreed with their vote on the Rangers issue, are not the club. They’re just the club’s temporary custodians. 

I thought then, as I think now, that it would be preferable if the board moved on, as I don’t think they’re taking the club forward, and I don’t think they have any intention of making a (long overdue) serious investment in the stadium, or in the team. I think the board have got off rather lightly over the last few seasons, as we’ve had a succession of under-achieving managers who have attracted much of the flak, and some of our support still seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the board have given the managers significant backing. There is a common denominator here, and it isn’t Marvin Bartley, or Willie Gibson, or Allan Johnston. 

I remember sitting with my son at the Kelty away match at the end of Sept (which, due to work commitments, is the last game I’ve attended, though my son was at the Falkirk game with his mum) and thinking the (abject) standard on display was probably not much better than the Lowland League, and that the Queens team that day, stuffed full of callow youths as it was, was probably little better than Hearts ‘B’, and Kelty likely no better than East Kilbride. I’m genuinely not sure that this Queens team would win the Lowland League, let alone contend for promotion to the Championship. 

As we’ve seen in recent years, a bunch of teams have come up from the lower echelons of the pyramid and thrived immediately (I’ve seen Spartans a few times over the last couple of seasons, including the play-off first leg v Brechin at the end of last season, and frankly, on balance, I’d back them to beat this Queens team), and a few of our former league rivals have sunk without a trace to the bottom half of the Lowland League, some of whom may not even have bottomed out yet (once detritus like Gretna 2008 and Edinburgh Uni eventually gets flushed out, it wouldn’t surprise me if East Stirlingshire is next in line). With a number of ambitious clubs still temporarily stuck below their true level in the pyramid due to its inherently anti-meritocratic structure (I noticed recently that WoSL Clydebank had signed Nicky Low, a player who would stroll into our current midfield), then the gradual cull of moribund league clubs is likely to continue, albeit at a more sedate pace than might be the case if the pyramid adopted a more progressive / dynamic promotion and relegation structure. 

At the moment we might feel comparatively insulated from the sort of precipitous fall from grace that has befallen the likes of Berwick, Cowdenbeath, Albion Rovers, East Stirling et al, and now threatens the likes of Clyde, and in a dead wood competition, there are still a few rotting husks of formerly healthy league clubs in even worse shape than ourselves. However, I see very few vital signs at Palmerston, or much hope for the future under the current board’s stewardship. and it’s hard to shake the feeling that we’re potentially sleep-walking towards oblivion.
 

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Frankie S

[bod]

Looking to start the week on a high, someone please tell me he's no longer here.

[Swarley]

Am being trolled by YouTube notifications now. Turn Off, definitely Turn Off. 

[Monkey Tennis]

I suppose it's the steady and sustained nature of the decline that prompts the existential fears.

I'll admit to not being there yet, but I reserve the right to change my tune if we soon drop yet another tier and still look hopeless.