The Official Liz Truss no longer PM but still a Clusterfuck thread

[williemillersmoustache]

5 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Is the 'just ignoring' part when I try to answer each objection to Labour point by point? Whether that is on immigration, trade unions, Independence etc.

Do you have another account which does all this answering?

[Boo Khaki]

2 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Is the 'just ignoring' part when I try to answer each objection to Labour point by point? Whether that is on immigration, trade unions, Independence etc.

On the other hand any objection to the SNP's plans for Independence are met with a standard 'we will get the government we vote for in an Independent Scotland, and that is all that matters'.

In what way is that not a completely reasonable and appropriate answer?

I am one of those myself for what it's worth. The question for me is entirely about the constitution. I couldn't care less about economic arguments, I'm simply not interested. I want to be governed entirely by a government elected within Scotland, no matter what the political make-up of that government is, and if it means the financial ruination of the country I couldn't care less. That's something to deal with as and when it arises, but at least the decisions we take in Scotland will actually be of material consequence.

I totally and completely accept that many other people feel completely differently and view my outlook as completely irresponsible, but then I just wonder what their yardsticks are. It can not possibly be that they demand fiscal and economic surety, because we don't have that in the UK as it is.

[williemillersmoustache]

1 minute ago, Boo Khaki said:

In what way is that not a completely reasonable and appropriate answer?

I am one of those myself for what it's worth. The question for me is entirely about the constitution. I couldn't care less about economic arguments, I'm simply not interested. I want to be governed entirely by a government elected within Scotland, no matter what the political make-up of that government is, and if it means the financial ruination of the country I couldn't care less. That's something to deal with as and when it arises, but at least the decisions we take in Scotland will actually be of material consequence.

I totally and completely accept that many other people feel completely differently and view my outlook as completely irresponsible, but then I just wonder what their yardsticks are. It can not possibly be that they demand fiscal and economic surety, because we don't have that in the UK as it is.

These fucking hateful Natzis and their obsession about governing with consent in the interests of the people who live here. Vile. Frankly. 

[Guest Jedi]

2 minutes ago, williemillersmoustache said:

Do you have another account which does all this answering?

Funnily enough, no. You will find all the answers in some detail, on immigration, trade unions, Independence, the economy, Europe and more on this one, and the 'What is the point of Labour'.

What we don't have beyond 'get the government you vote for', is answers on what an Independent Scotland will look like though.

[btb]

6 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Except we won't really we will? Given that combined more people vote against the SNP than for them, but in the first few Scottish Elections they will be a shoe in....so most of Scotland still won't get the government they voted for.Still..

Why would that be, Hollyrood elections will still be held using PR.

Edited October 20, 2022 by btb

[Tattie36]

2 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Funnily enough, no. You will find all the answers in some detail, on immigration, trade unions, Independence, the economy, Europe and more on this one, and the 'What is the point of Labour'.

What we don't have beyond 'get the government you vote for', is answers on what an Independent Scotland will look like though.

Ok, tell us all what the UK will look like - next week, in 6 months time, if and when Labour win an election.

Could anyone have predicted the last 2 months?

Why is it only the independence movement that must have all the answers to what’s happening in the near and distant future?

[Guest Jedi]

5 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

In what way is that not a completely reasonable and appropriate answer?

I am one of those myself for what it's worth. The question for me is entirely about the constitution. I couldn't care less about economic arguments, I'm simply not interested. I want to be governed entirely by a government elected within Scotland, no matter what the political make-up of that government is, and if it means the financial ruination of the country I couldn't care less. That's something to deal with as and when it arises, but at least the decisions we take in Scotland will actually be of material consequence.

I totally and completely accept that many other people feel completely differently and view my outlook as completely irresponsible, but then I just wonder what their yardsticks are. It can not possibly be that they demand fiscal and economic surety, because we don't have that in the UK as it is.

So the 'only' argument for Independence is that 'we get the government we vote for'? Despite the fact that when taking part in a UK election we also 'get the government which (most) people voted for'...but then it is totally unacceptable? 

Why should the Yes movement not have to answer any questions on what the currency will be, (oh yes, I know, sterling and then maybe the Euro, or maybe the Scottish pound at some stage) how borders will work, whether or not they would apply to rejoin the EU, or hold a referendum on that proposal, or apply to join EFTA, or how trade will operate in a Scotland which is still outside the EU, or how they will establish embassies abroad, or how the Central Bank will work, or maybe what the immigration policy will be, perhaps how the transition from oil to more renewable energy is done, for starters?

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

1 minute ago, Jedi said:

So the 'only' argument for Independence is that 'we get the government we vote for'? Despite the fact that when taking part in a UK election we also 'get the government which (most) people voted for'...but then it is totally unacceptable? 

Why should the Yes movement not have to answer any questions on what the currency will be, (oh yes, I know, sterling and then maybe the Euro, or maybe the Scottish pound at some stage) how borders will work, whether or not they would apply to rejoin the EU, or hold a referendum on that proposal, or apply to join EFTA, or how trade will operate in a Scotland which is still outside the EU, or how they will establish embassies abroad, or how the Central Bank will work, or maybe what the immigration policy will be, perhaps how the transition from oil to more renewable energy is done, for starters?

 

The same ways any other independent country does in the modern world

[Dan Steele]

4 minutes ago, Jedi said:

What we don't have beyond 'get the government you vote for', is answers on what an Independent Scotland will look like though.

For starters, it would look like every other independent country - with all the necessary levers in position to allow the elected government to create, via the ballot box, what the electorate want. Other than that, I can't say but I'd hope tae f**k whichever party is in power makes a better job of making a socially just country to live in that what's going on just now.

[Boo Khaki]

10 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Except we won't really we will? Given that combined more people vote against the SNP than for them, but in the first few Scottish Elections they will be a shoe in....so most of Scotland still won't get the government they voted for.Still..

Do you accept that the current Scottish parliament and government as is, and any post-Indi Scottish parliament and government, would be far more representative of Scotland than the current Westminster parliament and government, given that the UK parliament is elected by an electorate, roughly 91-92% of whom are not Scots and do not reside in Scotland?

I mean, there's always going to be somebody who votes in such a manner that means they won't see their chosen candidates or parties in government, so if you want to take it to extremes you can claim that no government is ever a government that is 'what people voted for'.

[Guest Jedi]

3 minutes ago, Tattie36 said:

 

Why is it only the independence movement that must have all the answers to what’s happening in the near and distant future?

Its most certainly not 'only' the Independence movement which should have to provide answers. However you would reasonably expect them to have at least a basic outline of what their plans are in the short term with regards to a negotiating position with the rUK. 

Every party has questions asked of its policies....and rightly so. As someone once said (and I agree) you will be doing well if you can find any political party where you agree with 70-80% of their policies. No one party gets it all right (or all wrong-although the Tories give that theory a run for its money).

Where you have the vast majority of folk on here supportive of just 1 party in the SNP they will come under a lot less scrutiny than others.

[Antlion]

21 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Is the 'just ignoring' part when I try to answer each objection to Labour point by point? Whether that is on immigration, trade unions, Independence etc.

Nope, it’s ignoring the multiple people who have pointed out that not blindly cheerleading Sir Keir’s Labour does not mean they think they’re exactly the same as the current Tories.

[Antlion]

1 minute ago, Jedi said:

Its most certainly not 'only' the Independence movement which should have to provide answers. However you would reasonably expect them to have at least a basic outline of what their plans are in the short term with regards to a negotiating position with the rUK. 

 

Will “maybes” and “coulds” and “possiblys” do? Those were all you thought necessary to make the case for Brexit Britain.

[sparky88]

50 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

It's highly likely Shapps will be fired into the sun within a fortnight. 

I'd quite like to watch that

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, Jedi said:

So the 'only' argument for Independence is that 'we get the government we vote for'? Despite the fact that when taking part in a UK election we also 'get the government which (most) people voted for'...but then it is totally unacceptable? 

Why should the Yes movement not have to answer any questions on what the currency will be, (oh yes, I know, sterling and then maybe the Euro, or maybe the Scottish pound at some stage) how borders will work, whether or not they would apply to rejoin the EU, or hold a referendum on that proposal, or apply to join EFTA, or how trade will operate in a Scotland which is still outside the EU, or how they will establish embassies abroad, or how the Central Bank will work, or maybe what the immigration policy will be, perhaps how the transition from oil to more renewable energy is done, for starters?

 

All these questions depend on negotiations with other parties which can't happen in good faith until after a referendum. The Bank of England and the Treasury admitted part of their job is to defend the Union, so they're always going to say sharing the pound for a spell is impossible, right up to the point where independence is happening and they'll do what they can to ensure a smooth transition in the rUK's interests. Equally the EU won't want to be seen as interfering with UK politics by suggesting a smooth and timely path back to membership until the issue of independence has been decided.

[Boo Khaki]

4 minutes ago, Jedi said:

So the 'only' argument for Independence is that 'we get the government we vote for'? Despite the fact that when taking part in a UK election we also 'get the government which (most) people voted for'...but then it is totally unacceptable? 

Why should the Yes movement not have to answer any questions on what the currency will be, (oh yes, I know, sterling and then maybe the Euro, or maybe the Scottish pound at some stage) how borders will work, whether or not they would apply to rejoin the EU, or hold a referendum on that proposal, or apply to join EFTA, or how trade will operate in a Scotland which is still outside the EU, or how they will establish embassies abroad, or how the Central Bank will work, or maybe what the immigration policy will be, perhaps how the transition from oil to more renewable energy is done, for starters?

 

I did not say it's 'the only argument'. I said it's the only aspect of the argument that actually matters to me. 

And no, I do not consider UK parliaments and governments as in any way representative of Scotland, because they are invariably made up of candidates elected by an overwhelming majority of people who are not Scots and do not live in Scotland.

I do not accept the argument that says a UK parliament is fair and representative because we are all just citizens of the UK and much the same. That view is invariably stated by people who are part of by far and away the largest component part of the UK, England, because by and large English voters get exactly the parliament they vote for.

IF that argument were true, and we were essentially all the same, these people should, in theory, have no issue with a UK parliament that was made up of 92% Scottish members, sat in Belfast, and with a government that was headed by a Welsh nationalist. They'd (understandably) have a tartan fit and throw you out the room for suggesting it, but that's not far removed from the utter shite we're supposed to just sit by and accept as Scots.

[Tattie36]

4 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Its most certainly not 'only' the Independence movement which should have to provide answers. However you would reasonably expect them to have at least a basic outline of what their plans are in the short term with regards to a negotiating position with the rUK. 

Every party has questions asked of its policies....and rightly so. As someone once said (and I agree) you will be doing well if you can find any political party where you agree with 70-80% of their policies. No one party gets it all right (or all wrong-although the Tories give that theory a run for its money).

Where you have the vast majority of folk on here supportive of just 1 party in the SNP they will come under a lot less scrutiny than others.

Again, you’re completely confusing the SNP/current SG with an independent Scotland. 

[Guest Jedi]

Is the Scottish parliament (currently) more representative of the voters who reside in Scotland, than the Scottish MP's who take part in the UK parliament given the disparity of populations between Scotland and England? Of course. And yes, in an Independent Scottish parliament you get the government which the party with the largest number of seats represents, same as you do at Westminster, or elsewhere.

Under the current system the SNP will still dominate the Independent Scottish parliament though. 

Also, even though it is down the list of priorities, I still fail to see how having your interest rates (which are a large driver of economic policy) as well as your lender of last resort being held by a 'foreign' government is really 'Independence', as the proposal to use sterling for some time makes it. 

Rather it is more a Scottish parliament with 'more' powers, following a Yes vote.

[Frank Quitely]

23 minutes ago, Jedi said:

On current polling, yes, Labour can win without needing many seats in Scotland.

A friendly word of warning - the word 'current' is currently (NPI) the most unreliable word in the UK political lexicon.

[SandyCromarty]

Just now, Jedi said:

Except we won't really we will? Given that combined more people vote against the SNP than for them, but in the first few Scottish Elections they will be a shoe in....so most of Scotland still won't get the government they voted for.Still..

Now that's silly, The Scottish Conservative and Labour voters did not vote together against the SNP at the last election., they voted for their individual parties, the only time the Scottish Tories and Scottish Labour voted on the same ticket was for Brexit and 64% of the Scottish population voted against Brexit and what a fuckin shambles that has turned out to be.

Anyway here are the Constituency percentages  for the last Scottish Election.

SNP - 47.7%

Tories - 21.89%

Labour - 21.59%

Libs - 6.94%

So your sums are a wee bit awry.

Seats - SNP - 64,  Tory- 31,  Labour -22,  Lib Dem 4.        So 64 seats as opposed to 57.

And the greater majority of those Tory, Labour and Lib Dem seats are list, if we had first past the post, which I'm against, there would hardly be any opposition at Holyrood.

No use adding the Greens 8 seats as they are in with the SNP.

So the combined constituency percentages and then the seats don't quite add up.

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by SandyCromarty