Scotland Refuseniks

[Jambomo]

4 hours ago, accies1874 said:

He's a p***k

 I’m not disagreeing with that

[Satoshi]

It's something probably worth a study as to why this affects some nations worse than others.

There's certainly a power axis to it, no player at a top tier nation will get much sympathy for not turning up (even at youth level never mind senior level). Players do pull out for mystery injuries for these nations, but it is never reported as being refusing a call up. I can think of virtually no incidents like this for the likes of Germany, Spain or Italy. Occasionally for France in high profile cases like Benzema and Laporte, and the Netherlands may have had some issues with it too. Contrast that with smaller European nations and it happens quite frequently, to many nations (including Scotland).

The more the interesting analysis would be geographic - it would be completely taboo for a South American player to not show up - never mind that it's a far longer journey for most of them.

Antonio Valencia made appearances for Ecuador in every year from 2004 to 2019. Luis Suarez stated in 2007, Edison Cavani in 2008 and both are still going (appearances in every one of those years). In Brazil or Argentina the idea of defying your national team would be outrageous, Diego Costa was pretty unpopular for choosing Spain and I don't think he will ever return to the domestic game there.

In Africa it pivots again with players frequently and openly refusing call ups, even for the bigger nations on the continent. Joel Matip an excellent example of this, but even young players like Salisu openly take the piss.

But why? It doesn't seem correlated to the domestic strength of the game (Scotland has a far stronger league than Ecuador). It doesn't easily seem correlated to how nationalistic a country is.

It deserves further analysis but for me the factors are the relative strength of the players Vs relative weakness of the association - excacerbated if the players have mixed national identities. It's a bit self fulfilling too, Arteta knows Tierney can easily drop out of the Scotland squad and it won't harm his career, but pulling Martinelli from the Brazil squad might. Meanwhile, club managers openly disparage African national sides and tournaments.

Why south American so strong in this respect? I don't know, it's maybe linked to the old Scottish view of domestic players Vs those playing internationally. The best south Americans have long abandoned their leagues for Europe and it's maybe pressure to give back. Whenever a national team does badly, whether Brazil or Ecuador, the same moronic call returns to prioritise, or exclusively select, domestic based players.

Scotland would never go for something that stupid...

 

[2426255]

4 hours ago, Satoshi said:

Why south American so strong in this respect? I don't know, it's maybe linked to the old Scottish view of domestic players Vs those playing internationally. The best south Americans have long abandoned their leagues for Europe and it's maybe pressure to give back. Whenever a national team does badly, whether Brazil or Ecuador, the same moronic call returns to prioritise, or exclusively select, domestic based players.

Scotland would never go for something that stupid...

I remember in the build up to our World Cup qualifying games against Austria reading about their coach Franco Foda being critiscised for always picking underperforming players playing in the German Bundesliga suggesting more domestic players should be picked.

It might have a slightly different dynamic to that of South America but under that kind of context it wouldn't surprise me to see some Scotland supporters forwarding that kind of view at some point in the future if Scotland weren't getting results. There are so many crap opinions flying about at those times the only reasonable response to take under such circumstances is to start trolling imo.

[Satoshi]

The idea of Anglos Vs domestic players has probably been around for over a century, and it shows up whenever Scotland have a poor run of form.

It's nonsense, but sadly ingrained into our (and many other) cultures. It is tied to having a strong domestic league, it's not as if Wales or Ireland fans want to only select players from their local league (or at least I really hope not).

Argentina and Brazil even created a fixture for domestic only national players in 2011 and 2012 before quickly expanding it to a regular national game. There's also the African Nations championship, an afcon for domestic only players, and unsurprisingly dominated by north Africa (with Congo winning twice, and the other four north African).

[2426255]

Yes, but the main takeaway for me is when these kind of opinions start coming out in the wake of poor results is that it's a massive signal for me to stop whatever I'm doing and begin trolling the board to see who can be reeled in and there's alway someone.

[Christophe]

10 hours ago, Satoshi said:

It's something probably worth a study as to why this affects some nations worse than others.

There's certainly a power axis to it, no player at a top tier nation will get much sympathy for not turning up (even at youth level never mind senior level). Players do pull out for mystery injuries for these nations, but it is never reported as being refusing a call up. I can think of virtually no incidents like this for the likes of Germany, Spain or Italy. Occasionally for France in high profile cases like Benzema and Laporte, and the Netherlands may have had some issues with it too. Contrast that with smaller European nations and it happens quite frequently, to many nations (including Scotland).

The more the interesting analysis would be geographic - it would be completely taboo for a South American player to not show up - never mind that it's a far longer journey for most of them.

Antonio Valencia made appearances for Ecuador in every year from 2004 to 2019. Luis Suarez stated in 2007, Edison Cavani in 2008 and both are still going (appearances in every one of those years). In Brazil or Argentina the idea of defying your national team would be outrageous, Diego Costa was pretty unpopular for choosing Spain and I don't think he will ever return to the domestic game there.

In Africa it pivots again with players frequently and openly refusing call ups, even for the bigger nations on the continent. Joel Matip an excellent example of this, but even young players like Salisu openly take the piss.

But why? It doesn't seem correlated to the domestic strength of the game (Scotland has a far stronger league than Ecuador). It doesn't easily seem correlated to how nationalistic a country is.

It deserves further analysis but for me the factors are the relative strength of the players Vs relative weakness of the association - excacerbated if the players have mixed national identities. It's a bit self fulfilling too, Arteta knows Tierney can easily drop out of the Scotland squad and it won't harm his career, but pulling Martinelli from the Brazil squad might. Meanwhile, club managers openly disparage African national sides and tournaments.

Why south American so strong in this respect? I don't know, it's maybe linked to the old Scottish view of domestic players Vs those playing internationally. The best south Americans have long abandoned their leagues for Europe and it's maybe pressure to give back. Whenever a national team does badly, whether Brazil or Ecuador, the same moronic call returns to prioritise, or exclusively select, domestic based players.

Scotland would never go for something that stupid...

 

Diego Costa just played in the Brazilian league last year! 

[Satoshi]

1 hour ago, Christophe said:

Diego Costa just played in the Brazilian league last year! 

Apologies, my mistake.

Wonder if he left partly because he was getting it tight from the stands.

Or maybe people have pretty much forgotten and moved on.

[velo army]

12 hours ago, Satoshi said:

It's something probably worth a study as to why this affects some nations worse than others.

There's certainly a power axis to it, no player at a top tier nation will get much sympathy for not turning up (even at youth level never mind senior level). Players do pull out for mystery injuries for these nations, but it is never reported as being refusing a call up. I can think of virtually no incidents like this for the likes of Germany, Spain or Italy. Occasionally for France in high profile cases like Benzema and Laporte, and the Netherlands may have had some issues with it too. Contrast that with smaller European nations and it happens quite frequently, to many nations (including Scotland).

The more the interesting analysis would be geographic - it would be completely taboo for a South American player to not show up - never mind that it's a far longer journey for most of them.

Antonio Valencia made appearances for Ecuador in every year from 2004 to 2019. Luis Suarez stated in 2007, Edison Cavani in 2008 and both are still going (appearances in every one of those years). In Brazil or Argentina the idea of defying your national team would be outrageous, Diego Costa was pretty unpopular for choosing Spain and I don't think he will ever return to the domestic game there.

In Africa it pivots again with players frequently and openly refusing call ups, even for the bigger nations on the continent. Joel Matip an excellent example of this, but even young players like Salisu openly take the piss.

But why? It doesn't seem correlated to the domestic strength of the game (Scotland has a far stronger league than Ecuador). It doesn't easily seem correlated to how nationalistic a country is.

It deserves further analysis but for me the factors are the relative strength of the players Vs relative weakness of the association - excacerbated if the players have mixed national identities. It's a bit self fulfilling too, Arteta knows Tierney can easily drop out of the Scotland squad and it won't harm his career, but pulling Martinelli from the Brazil squad might. Meanwhile, club managers openly disparage African national sides and tournaments.

Why south American so strong in this respect? I don't know, it's maybe linked to the old Scottish view of domestic players Vs those playing internationally. The best south Americans have long abandoned their leagues for Europe and it's maybe pressure to give back. Whenever a national team does badly, whether Brazil or Ecuador, the same moronic call returns to prioritise, or exclusively select, domestic based players.

Scotland would never go for something that stupid...

 

I would be surprised if the issue of non participation is worse in Scotland. I imagine it's because you're exposed in greater detail to the national team of this country. I'm sure you could pick various examples of Italian or Spanish players falling out with management or just deciding to jack it in early. 

You could be right though, and perhaps our status as a "region" (I know) of a larger island means that some people don't feel a huge sense of Scottish national identity, compared to other countries whose sense of statehood and nationhood is more securely defined. 

Perhaps playing abroad helps. I recall one of the past England midfielders (Gerrard, possibly) talking about his foreign teammates' attitude to international football. They couldn't wait to get back and play with their countrymen and friends from home, but to the England boys it felt like a bit if a chore at times. 

[BFTD]

3 hours ago, velo army said:

I would be surprised if the issue of non participation is worse in Scotland. I imagine it's because you're exposed in greater detail to the national team of this country. I'm sure you could pick various examples of Italian or Spanish players falling out with management or just deciding to jack it in early. 

You could be right though, and perhaps our status as a "region" (I know) of a larger island means that some people don't feel a huge sense of Scottish national identity, compared to other countries whose sense of statehood and nationhood is more securely defined. 

Perhaps playing abroad helps. I recall one of the past England midfielders (Gerrard, possibly) talking about his foreign teammates' attitude to international football. They couldn't wait to get back and play with their countrymen and friends from home, but to the England boys it felt like a bit if a chore at times. 

Certainly at points in the past, you got the impression that playing for England was something of an arseache. They're bound to have known that they weren't really good enough to win anything, but had plenty of evidence from the past to show that the public and press would pillory them for anything less than total victory. Basically the only chance they had of receiving actual praise was if they won a game against Germany. Can't make you feel terribly positive about the experience.

[DiegoDiego]

In Brazil or Argentina the idea of defying your national team would be outrageous,

Didn't Messi quit in a huff at one point?

[Satoshi]

8 hours ago, DiegoDiego said:

 

Didn't Messi quit in a huff at one point?

Then quickly came back.