Ben Doak

[Molotov]

I could understand Ben Doak not being called up to play for Scotland if he had never made a first team appearance for Liverpool.

Frank McGarvey was immediately given his Scotland debut (as a substitute against Northern Ireland) days after signing for Liverpool.

Frank then made his full starting debut against the reigning world champions Argentina. 

Frank McGarvey never made a single first team competitive appearance for Liverpool. 

Ben Doak is going to be a superstar!
 

 

[Richey Edwards]

Ben Doak will be playing for Cowdenbeath in five years.

[RandomGuy.]

You call Doak up for the same reason you have players training before they play. 

You want him used to the routine, used to his team mates, used to the manager, used to the tactical ideas, before hes ready. So when he is ready, hes completely ready.

Its really very simple stuff.

[Tartan Blood]

11 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

You call Doak up for the same reason you have players training before they play. 

You want him used to the routine, used to his team mates, used to the manager, used to the tactical ideas, before hes ready. So when he is ready, hes completely ready.

Its really very simple stuff.

Spot on. Based on the fact Clarke called up Gilmour and Patterson for the Euros, there is no reason to think he won't do the same with Doak. It would be so much better having him going to that tournament with a few caps under his belt, but, more importantly, a few training camps under his belt. 

 

 

[2426255]

2 hours ago, Tartan Blood said:

Context is very important in the hype levels though. The big difference is Gilmour was getting a game in his teens at Champions League winners, Chelsea. Turnbull was getting a game for Motherwell, Ferguson - Aberdeen, Hickey - Hearts, Ramsay - Aberdeen, Doig - Hibs. No disrespect to those teams, but the players you have to supplant are of a vastly different calibre.

Fair enough if that's your view, the leaps taken are just a bit too big for me. The conversation moves quickly from he's a talented young player because he's getting game-time at a big club to the assumption that he's going to Euro 2024.

[Captain_Sensible]

3 hours ago, Molotov said:

I could understand Ben Doak not being called up to play for Scotland if he had never made a first team appearance for Liverpool.

Frank McGarvey was immediately given his Scotland debut (as a substitute against Northern Ireland) days after signing for Liverpool.

Frank then made his full starting debut against the reigning world champions Argentina. 

Frank McGarvey never made a single first team competitive appearance for Liverpool. 

Ben Doak is going to be a superstar!
 

 

Maradons scored in that game, aged 18. Made his Argentina debut at 16.

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Captain_Sensible

[Captain_Sensible]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

You call Doak up for the same reason you have players training before they play. 

You want him used to the routine, used to his team mates, used to the manager, used to the tactical ideas, before hes ready. So when he is ready, hes completely ready.

Its really very simple stuff.

It’s not really anything to do with getting him “ready”

He’s a first team player with Liverpool. Whatever happens in the future happens in the future. 
 

For the here and now though, you need to select players who can do something now. Doak is in that category.

[Tartan Blood]

11 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Fair enough if that's your view, the leaps taken are just a bit too big for me. The conversation moves quickly from he's a talented young player because he's getting game-time at a big club to the assumption that he's going to Euro 2024.

If he gets papped back down to the u23s and doesn't make another bench for Liverpool between now and the Euros, then fair enough. But he's currently getting similar exposure to what Gilmour was getting for Chelsea, which Clarke deemed good enough for the Euros. 

Doak also has the advantage that he plays in a position and style like no one else in the squad. He could be the wildcard supersub. The secret weapon.

Honestly, I think Andy Robertson will be the deciding factor for Clarke. If he says he is good enough and ready, Clarke will get him in. He'll know him more intimately than anyone.

[The Moonster]

16 hours ago, 2426255 said:

I think it's more the hype that drives this kind of conversation.

I can't remember seeing the same with other promising younger Scottish players such as Hickey, Patterson, Doig, Ramsay, Ferguson or Turnbull. I could be wrong about that as I'm not across all of it especially as the years go back, but this thread and the Gilmour thread seem more comparable than with other young players who are less hyped but equally talented.

I don't think posters are trying to make themselves look clever just trying to argue things how they see it.

Hickey and Patterson were both getting hyped for call ups before they got them, especially in Hickeys case; you had folk saying he should be called up and in line for a starting place and others saying he had to prove himself to Scot fucking Gemmill in the U21s despite him playing every week in Serie A. 

Almost every thread ends up in this spiralling brain rot in this section and it's long past boring. 

 

[Donathan]

2 hours ago, Tartan Blood said:

If he gets papped back down to the u23s and doesn't make another bench for Liverpool between now and the Euros, then fair enough. But he's currently getting similar exposure to what Gilmour was getting for Chelsea, which Clarke deemed good enough for the Euros. 

Doak also has the advantage that he plays in a position and style like no one else in the squad. He could be the wildcard supersub. The secret weapon.

Honestly, I think Andy Robertson will be the deciding factor for Clarke. If he says he is good enough and ready, Clarke will get him in. He'll know him more intimately than anyone.

 

Spot on. Sharing a club with the Scotland captain will be worth its weight in gold to Doak. Even if Clarke doesn't call him up, Robertson will be able to give him feedback on what he needs to do to get in to the squad.

[printer]

On 14/08/2023 at 13:25, Bing.McCrosby said:

Im not sure why he would have to wait to play until were comfortable against Cyprus.

Unless you think Scotland are stronger than Liverpool, and Cyprus are better than Chelsea.

Everyone is better than Chelsea, m8.

[2426255]

On 17/08/2023 at 08:09, Tartan Blood said:

he's currently getting similar exposure to what Gilmour was getting for Chelsea, which Clarke deemed good enough for the Euros. 

The conditions at the time helped Gilmour, Patterson and Turnbull to be named in Scotland's Euro 2020 squad. It isn't a straightforward comparison.

Quote

When you've got talent coming through and players injured and three extra places it's a chance to bring the young boys in, but I've tried to remain true to the spirit of the squad I've had before, and keep the core and nucleus together.

Steve Clarke

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57171330 

Edited August 20, 2023 by 2426255

[bleedingums]

Has made the bench again today. Hopefully manages some minutes.

[2426255]

0 minutes today. Played 13 minutes (7%) so far this season. One more game before the senior squad is announced (Newcastle, away). Two games before the International window begins. 

I think circumstances probably worked against Ben Doak today with Liverpool having Alexis MacAllister sent off, but that can happen in individual games and being a substitute can leave you a hostage to fortune. 

[accies1874]

If he's not good enough to come on against Bournemouth then he's not good enough to come on against England

[Tartan Blood]

22 hours ago, 2426255 said:

The conditions at the time helped Gilmour, Patterson and Turnbull to be named in Scotland's Euro 2020 squad. It isn't a straightforward comparison.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57171330 

I know the situation is a bit more nuanced than I've stated, but I can't envisage a better comparison than the last Euros. He chose 2 uncapped teenagers for the squad. Which could be what Doak is. I'm also assuming we have a 26 man squad again. So that is an extra 3 players right off the bat. 

If Fraser doesn't ressurect his career at Celtic, or anywhere else, then you could argue Doak would be taking his spot. But more likely is that Forrest won't be called up again and that would be the like for like replacement.

Obviously you have the likes of Jacob Brown and Shankland that are in and out of squads but I feel like it'll be quite easy to make room for Doak in a 26 man squad.

[ArabFC]

4 hours ago, accies1874 said:

If he's not good enough to come on against Bournemouth then he's not good enough to come on against England

Or... his competition at Liverpool is Mo Sarah and his completion at Scotland is Ryan Christie.

[Captain_Sensible]

8 hours ago, accies1874 said:

If he's not good enough to come on against Bournemouth then he's not good enough to come on against England

If he’s good enough to be on the bench for Liverpool then he’s good enough to be on the bench for Scotland! 

[velo army]

Scotland > Liverpool 

[2426255]

14 hours ago, Tartan Blood said:

I know the situation is a bit more nuanced than I've stated, but I can't envisage a better comparison than the last Euros.

The case being put forward as I understand it is that the end point is Ben Doak being included in Scotland's Euro 2024 squad because he's a talented young player showing signs of breaking through at a big club and working back from that it's preferable to include him in the senior squads between now and then.

I don't remember an example that is comparable to what is being proposed above. The progression of similarly placed players such as Aaron Hickey, Calvin Ramsay, Billy Gilmour and Nathan Patterson to the senior squad were at shorter proximity to important games (Gilmour, Patterson, Hickey) and/or helped by conditions at the time such as injuries (Gilmour, Ramsay).