Next permanent Scotland manager

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

The middle ground is where its at. The party has tacked too far to the left and the progressives seem to be driving all policy. Which has led to the pursuit of wedge issues and culture war pish.

Get back to solidly governing and do it from the middle ground. That's how you win more than 50%.

Jeremy Corbyn is a good case study in moving to the left. It wouldn't be as pronounced in Scotland but the result would be the same imo. Moving leftwards is not the answer nor is going too far to the right. Back to the middle, it allows you to keep the tent nice and big.

You think folk are angry they don't get to pay for their prescriptions any longer? SNP's "left" policies have been their most popular.

[Trogdor]

11 minutes ago, FreedomFarter said:

You think folk are angry they don't get to pay for their prescriptions any longer? SNP's "left" policies have been their most popular.

We can play pick the policy if you wish. For reference prescription charges were abolished over 12 years ago. What have you done for me lately?

That was my point about getting back to solid governance. The last 5/6 years (probably longer in truth) there has been a real dearth of good policy. Has the party moved more to the left or right in that period?

[welshbairn]

31 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

The middle ground is where its at. The party has tacked too far to the left and the progressives seem to be driving all policy. Which has led to the pursuit of wedge issues and culture war pish.

Get back to solidly governing and do it from the middle ground. That's how you win more than 50%.

Jeremy Corbyn is a good case study in moving to the left. It wouldn't be as pronounced in Scotland but the result would be the same imo. Moving leftwards is not the answer nor is going too far to the right. Back to the middle, it allows you to keep the tent nice and big.

You might be forgetting what a massive shift to the SNP from Labour it was, and not all down to indy, disillusion with Blairite policies had a fair bit to do with it too. I'm not saying a more European style centrist approach couldn't work, with the rough modern Tory style edges shaved off, but I haven't a clue what Forbes is really about, she hints of a shift to the right but says she won't reduce business or higher rate income taxes to encourage investment, which is about the only levers she has to encourage growth without borrowing powers. She's got a video showing her visiting a modular building designer and manufacturer near Inverness claiming that this example of a Scottish firm using Scottish timber to build affordable housing is the answer, but they charge about a third more than your standard house of the same size. I'm not sure if there's anything more than a desire to say things that people like to hear, like eliminating child poverty but not a hint of how she'd go about it.

 

[Dunning1874]

6 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Haven't watched tonight's debate but it would be a brave person who bet on that a move to the right from the progressive centre left wouldn't lose more votes than those gained from wobbly conservatives.

Yeah, there's also a noticeable failure to appreciate that polls of the electorate as a whole aren't reflective of prospective SNP voters either.

Just as someone who despises the Tories and would rather commit Seppuku than ever vote for them could nevertheless respond to a poll about Tory PMs saying they prefer Sunak to Truss or Johnson, a poll of the electorate having Forbes as the favoured candidate doesn't necessarily mean she's the best choice to appeal to undecided voters.

You may for example find several Tory voters preferring Forbes to Regan and Yousaf as she has the most right wing economic platform. It doesn't follow that they're actually going to vote SNP if she wins because many of them will also be died in the wool unionists who spend all day making impact font memes about Wee Nippy and wouldn't vote for the SNP if their lives depended on it, regardless of hating her considerably less than Sturgeon.

[ScotiaNostra]

I dont really see Yousaf as that left wing to be honest. Theres no true left wing candidate out of these 3.

[renton]

6 hours ago, Trogdor said:

The middle ground is where its at. The party has tacked too far to the left and the progressives seem to be driving all policy. Which has led to the pursuit of wedge issues and culture war pish.

Get back to solidly governing and do it from the middle ground. That's how you win more than 50%.

Jeremy Corbyn is a good case study in moving to the left. It wouldn't be as pronounced in Scotland but the result would be the same imo. Moving leftwards is not the answer nor is going too far to the right. Back to the middle, it allows you to keep the tent nice and big.

Kate Forbes isn't the middle.

[Granny Danger]

Once Scotland becomes Independent we will see the emergence of new political parties to replace the SNP, these will largely differentiate themselves on ‘traditional’ left/right basis as with other European parliamentary democracies.

Forbes will be in the Conservative equivalent; Yousaf in the Labour one (though hopefully a more radical Labour than the U.K. one).  Regan?  Monster Raving Loony maybe?
 

 

[Trogdor]

33 minutes ago, renton said:

Kate Forbes isn't the middle.

I never said she was.

[ICTJohnboy]

7 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Once Scotland becomes Independent we will see the emergence of new political parties to replace the SNP, these will largely differentiate themselves on ‘traditional’ left/right basis as with other European parliamentary democracies.

 

Shame that none of the present leadership candidates look remotely capable of achieving independence for Scotland.

[Granny Danger]

12 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

Shame that none of the present leadership candidates look remotely capable of achieving independence for Scotland.

A leader cannot ‘achieve’ Independence, only the people can.

Sturgeon might have faltered latterly but most would agree she was a very formidable leader for years, yet she could not achieve Independence.

 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

None of the candidates are "left wing" and anyone who thinks they are probably shouldn't be leaving the house without adult supervision. Yousaf is a pretty boring centrist, Forbes is a centre-right and Regan is an irrelevant fucking fruit loop. 

I don't think anything will particularly change whether Yousaf or Forbes wins. Binning any of the so-called "left" policies would be a massive instant own goal, particularly free prescriptions and the likes of bedroom tax mitigation. Binning GRA, or at least leaving it fucking about in the long grass *might* gain some support from a few bigots and Alba moonhowlers, but she's probably lose a bit of support elsewhere. 

Give it a few weeks and AlbaDas will be demanding she resign because we aren't independent yet. 

 

 

[sophia]

7 hours ago, welshbairn said:

I haven't decided who to vote for yet, I'm still waiting to hear her strategy for growing the economy and expanding the tax base to provide the cash for all the goodies she's promising. As Finance Secretary she must have some kind of clue.

Are you also waiting to hear how Humza is going to cost his plans, such as they are, or are you holding Kate to a higher standard?

For someone who was previously openly ridiculed on here and more widely for that matter, Humza is getting a remarkably easy ride. Just as well, he might fall off.

[Savage Henry]

12 hours ago, FreedomFarter said:

Sure, that seems apparent. I don't know who these folk are or what they're doing. Are they just about independence for pure identity reasons and not due to any political conviction? For me, the independence movement as a whole should be as left as possible. I don't see the point otherwise, both in terms of electoral strategy and ideals.

Yup.  Independence as a means to an end is the only way swing voters will be attracted to it.  Moon howling absolutists like Regan lay themselves open to accusations of unrepentant nationalism.  

10 hours ago, DrewDon said:

I can't decide what is funnier about this: Regan's team claiming her clownshoes performance as a "victory"; or Torrance pretending that the staff recognised who Regan was, let alone being "thrilled" to meet her. 

The lack of self awareness is ghastly. She’s not long for the SNP, mind you.  

[vikingTON]

14 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

 accusations of unrepentant nationalism.  

lol wut

[Trogdor]

1 hour ago, Benjamin_Nevis said:

I don't think anything will particularly change whether Yousaf or Forbes wins. Binning any of the so-called "left" policies would be a massive instant own goal, particularly free prescriptions and the likes of bedroom tax mitigation. Binning GRA, or at least leaving it fucking about in the long grass *might* gain some support from a few bigots and Alba moonhowlers, but she's probably lose a bit of support elsewhere. 

No-one suggested binning left wing policies. I can see why you want to frame it that way. Again you are citing successes with the free prescriptions from 2011 and bedroom tax from 2017 (?) Again, what have you done for me lately?

If we are playing cherry picking legislation, can I have a go as well?

Let's talk the named person scheme or the hate crime bill. Two terrible pieces of legislation one binned as it was incompatible with human rights legislation and the second yet to be implemented because of the resource requirements on Police Scotland. Will it ever be implemented?

That's without going near the binfire of the GRR which is a good case study in how not to communicate with the electorate. "You're all transphobes, misogynists, homophobic and possibly racist if you oppose this." A bill which had laudable aims was hijacked for a culture war of which the SG badly miscommunicated with the electorate. The GRR is dead in its current form, it would be electoral self harm to proceed with it. The opposition is more than just Alba das. Single sex spaces need addressed as well. Or how they are protected needs explained to the electorate coherently. 

The SG need to govern better and legislate better. The last 5/6 years there has been a real dearth of any positive legislation. I think that's best done from the middle ground. Particularly if you want to win 50%+ of the vote. Moving further to the left won't achieve that aim. 

I wasn't referring to specific candidates but it is one of the reasons I would jettison the Greens. They are pulling policy more leftwards and that's not where the majority of the electorate sits.

[renton]

56 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

No-one suggested binning left wing policies. I can see why you want to frame it that way. Again you are citing successes with the free prescriptions from 2011 and bedroom tax from 2017 (?) Again, what have you done for me lately?

If we are playing cherry picking legislation, can I have a go as well?

Let's talk the named person scheme or the hate crime bill. Two terrible pieces of legislation one binned as it was incompatible with human rights legislation and the second yet to be implemented because of the resource requirements on Police Scotland. Will it ever be implemented?

That's without going near the binfire of the GRR which is a good case study in how not to communicate with the electorate. "You're all transphobes, misogynists, homophobic and possibly racist if you oppose this." A bill which had laudable aims was hijacked for a culture war of which the SG badly miscommunicated with the electorate. The GRR is dead in its current form, it would be electoral self harm to proceed with it. The opposition is more than just Alba das. Single sex spaces need addressed as well. Or how they are protected needs explained to the electorate coherently. 

The SG need to govern better and legislate better. The last 5/6 years there has been a real dearth of any positive legislation. I think that's best done from the middle ground. Particularly if you want to win 50%+ of the vote. Moving further to the left won't achieve that aim. 

I wasn't referring to specific candidates but it is one of the reasons I would jettison the Greens. They are pulling policy more leftwards and that's not where the majority of the electorate sits.

If talking back to 2016/2017, I suppose you could point to the introduction of the more progressive income tax, the implementation of the Scottish National Investment bank, a lot of the early life improvement stuff from the Childcare payment to nursery hours to the baby boxes. All positive legislation.

I would agree that implementation has been weak in a number of areas but that is unlikely to change as its more to do with the civil service than the elected cabinet.

Nothing I've seen from Forbes makes me think she'd be better able to communicate on something like the GRR beyond simply making it vanish. There is a constructed idea about her as a polished performer that hasn't quite come out in this race. 

The deal with the Greens was designed to justify the idea of a pro Indy majority. Jettisoning the Greens now may not make a huge difference as while a minority government would have to cast around to secure its budgets - it's unlikely that Labour will help pass any SNP budget ever, the Lib Dems and Tories might with the right incentives but the latter especially leaves the SNP open to Tartan Tory jibes from Labour and you won't win an election in Scotand running to the right of Labour. One way or another you need to accommodate the Greens...

[Jacksgranda]

3 hours ago, sophia said:

Are you also waiting to hear how Humza is going to cost his plans, such as they are, or are you holding Kate to a higher standard?

For someone who was previously openly ridiculed on here and more widely for that matter, Humza is getting a remarkably easy ride. Just as well, he might fall off.

Naughty, naughty.

[MazzyStar]

1 hour ago, Trogdor said:

 I would jettison the Greens. They are pulling policy more leftwards

No they’re not 

[welshbairn]

The mistake the SNP made with GRR was not pushing it through 5 years ago before Twitter had a nervous breakdown about it and it transmitted out into the real world. It was fairly uncontroversial, Ireland had passed it with little fuss and May was talking about doing the same in Westminster, but there was resistance within the SNP from the likes of Cherry so they kicked the can down the road.

[Trogdor]

25 minutes ago, renton said:

If talking back to 2016/2017, I suppose you could point to the introduction of the more progressive income tax, the implementation of the Scottish National Investment bank, a lot of the early life improvement stuff from the Childcare payment to nursery hours to the baby boxes. All positive legislation.

I would agree that implementation has been weak in a number of areas but that is unlikely to change as its more to do with the civil service than the elected cabinet.

Nothing I've seen from Forbes makes me think she'd be better able to communicate on something like the GRR beyond simply making it vanish. There is a constructed idea about her as a polished performer that hasn't quite come out in this race. 

The deal with the Greens was designed to justify the idea of a pro Indy majority. Jettisoning the Greens now may not make a huge difference as while a minority government would have to cast around to secure its budgets - it's unlikely that Labour will help pass any SNP budget ever, the Lib Dems and Tories might with the right incentives but the latter especially leaves the SNP open to Tartan Tory jibes from Labour and you won't win an election in Scotand running to the right of Labour. One way or another you need to accommodate the Greens...

More progressive income tax didn't really involve much legislating. The power has existed for a long time. It is a positive though, there is a tipping point though on the middle earners. I don't know why we haven't restored the top rate of Income Tax to 50%? It seems like a no brainer to me.

The Scottish National Investment Bank hasn't achieved much as I can see (I guess covid could be cited in mitigation), its still early but even its leadership of the bank is a shambles. They can't seem to recruit a permanent CEO.

On the early life stuff the childcare payment and baby boxes are good. On the expansion of childcare hours I would take issue with it. The 30 free hours for 3 and 4 years old was delayed repeatedly and then Councils were allowed to renege on the implementation dates. I speak from personal experience having to fight the Council to get the hours.

I also think they need to go further for childcare for younger kids as well. It's actually a vote winner from Humza - he has that one right.

The Greens are an irrelevance and should be treated as such. Governing as a minority isn't really a risk. The SNP have 64 MSPs, 1 short of an outright majority. It takes all of the opposition to combine to actually defeat the government. An independence majority in the Parliament still exists whether in coalition with the Greens or not. Confidence and supply can also be arranged. Fundamentally, I think a party that has never won a constituency seat, polls 8.1% in the regional list (of which I think you could infer that at least half comes from the SNP constituency voters anyway) should have ministers in the government. Its a bit of a nonsense. There also seems to be an obsession with the coalition with the Greens in the media anyway.