Spain (a) in October

[Donathan]

9 minutes ago, Jaggy McJagface said:

The 6 team groups don't count their points gained against the bottom placed sides. 
 

Mathematically, the only threat to us being pot 2 in that scenario is either;

 

1.) The Dutch win the rest of their matches (including against France) and end up with a better GD than us

or

2.) Belgium vs Austria tonight ends in a draw, and neither team drops any other points in their remaining fixtures.

If that happens, I think both would be capped at 20 points. I think the Netherlands/France scenario is the only one that can relegate us down to pot 3 IF we win the two games in November. 

[Jaggy McJagface]

Just now, Donathan said:

If that happens, I think both would be capped at 20 points. I think the Netherlands/France scenario is the only one that can relegate us down to pot 3 IF we win the two games in November. 

Yeah you’re right, my mistake. Looks like we’ll know for certain after the France game tonight whether 6/6 will be enough for at least pot 2.

[GroundskeeperWillie]

1 hour ago, Stellaboz said:

Thanks to @McGlovin' for stream assist... was i the only one that heard the commentator on Dazn say the goal stood? Keeper shown as booked, then 5 minutes later getting very confused by the 0 0 scoreline?!

^^ Gerry McNee found

[Diamonds are Forever]

50 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

The referee is supposed to be international class if the “pressure” of looking at VAR makes him forget hand signals that he must make many times every match then he’s not fit for purpose, but we already knew that after McGinn was flattened. 

 

I completely agree with this, others will disagree but I think in the end it was probably correct that the goal was disallowed so I'm not more frustrated at the result anymore than I'd normally be. But whether it was even disallowed for the right reason is very questionable and the actual process and way they got to that decision is disgraceful. The reasoning that they maybe wrongly signalled might explain the confusion, but it certainly doesn't excuse it. It is amatuer stuff. It's partly individual incompetence but a bit like the Spurs Liverpool game I think it's indicative of a wider issue with the way games are officiated.

I know comparisons with Rugby are becoming a bit tired now, but when you compare the process they go through and how clear it is to what you get in football it's ridiculous. I don't know Rugby laws very well but from watching games I understand exactly why a decision has been given because it's explained so clearly and then communicated to the players. I've watched football my whole life yet you're sitting there for 2 or 3 minutes in silence with not a clue what they are specifically checking for, why they are checking it and then last night, why it was even disallowed. I don't understand why those discussions are not available to be heard.

This game was arguably the most important game in this round of qualifiers so should have one of the best referees in Europe. He's either given a horrificly bad decision by saying it's a foul (as will the VAR who told him to check it), or he's given the offside but not signalled this or communicated it properly to the players and the VAR, who have then given out the wrong information. It's a shambles.

 

45 minutes ago, PrestersKTID said:

just watched it back. Even if hendry is offside when ball is kicked the “influence” over Simon doesn’t happen until balls well on its way. 
 

 

Not really sure of your point here, you can't be offside before the ball is kicked so obviously it happened once the ball was on it's way. The alleged infringement happened as the ball was making it's way towards the keeper so there's nothing wrong with the timing of it, it's just a question of whether he impeded the goalie during the flight .

[TONTROOPER]

3 hours ago, HeartsOfficialMoaner said:

Why didn't Hendry step out? He just forgot? He is playing like it is a corner. He will know better next time. It's a shame because the goal is brilliant. Nakamura would be proud of that one, Del Piero also. It was that good.

 

 

Andy Ritchie may also have filed it under his  'no bad' collection. 

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, forameus said:

If it was relating to offside, wouldn't you be seeing the lines in the pictures he was looking at?  Unless I missed them.  And how else are you supposed to look at an incident where the free-kick was where it was?

 

The video being shown is for the benefit of the referee only. He doesn't need to be shown the lines, because he's being told by his VAR assistants that it's offside, and they're only asking him to review the subjective part about whether it's interfering with play. The referee doesn't usually see anything at all for standard offside decisions - he just trusts what the people who are there to do that tell him.

[Shuggie_Murray7]

Just now, craigkillie said:

 

The video being shown is for the benefit of the referee only. He doesn't need to be shown the lines, because he's being told by his VAR assistants that it's offside, and they're only asking him to review the subjective part about whether it's interfering with play. The referee doesn't usually see anything at all for standard offside decisions - he just trusts what the people who are there to do that tell him.

So that would surely make the on-field decision after the VAR check an offside, as opposed the the referee signalling that it's a foul?

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, PrestersKTID said:

just watched it back. Even if hendry is offside when ball is kicked the “influence” over Simon doesn’t happen until balls well on its way. 
 

If you're offside when the ball is kicked, you're offside for the whole phase of play, and anything which interferes with an opponent at any stage constitutes an offence.

[Honest_Man#1]

8 minutes ago, Donathan said:

If that happens, I think both would be capped at 20 points. I think the Netherlands/France scenario is the only one that can relegate us down to pot 3 IF we win the two games in November. 

 

7 minutes ago, Jaggy McJagface said:

Yeah you’re right, my mistake. Looks like we’ll know for certain after the France game tonight whether 6/6 will be enough for at least pot 2.

In that case, other than the dream scenario of a draw on Sunday, I’m definitely in the Spain to win and confirm qualification camp if we can still secure pot 2, whereas I was starting to sway towards Norway winning to give us a chance of topping the group. I completely understand people just wanting qualified asap, but being pot 1/2 at the tournament vs pot 3/4 is a huge difference in terms of chances of progression.

[craigkillie]

28 minutes ago, Honest_Man#1 said:

Not sure this is correct, looking at the groups there are a few who would be able to finish second with that sort of points total?

Not in 5 team groups. If we win 7 games out of 8 then it would be close to impossible for anyone but us to be the best runners-up.

[Molotov]

4 minutes ago, TONTROOPER said:

Andy Ritchie may also have filed it under his  'no bad' collection. 

Andy used to do his best work from corners. Outstanding talent. Loved to watch him play. Even against Saints. 

[Donathan]

8 minutes ago, Jaggy McJagface said:

Yeah you’re right, my mistake. Looks like we’ll know for certain after the France game tonight whether 6/6 will be enough for at least pot 2.

In fact, a draw between Belgium and Austria would actually be a good thing because if Spain drop points on Sunday, that draw would help put pot 1 into our own hands.

 

We will enter the November window knowing that two wins puts in pot 1 if Spain drop points in Oslo and any of the following happens:

 

1) Hungary drop points either at home to Serbia tomorrow or in Bulgaria on Tuesday 

 

2) Austria v Belgium is a draw tonight 

 

3) England drop points at home to on Tuesday 

[jimbaxters]

2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Well it's obvious he didn't give a foul. People preferring to believe a communications breakdown to what they can see with their own eyes doesn't make it so. From the moment he went over to the monitor they're clearly showing him an image relating to offside.

Yes, apologies for letting the facts get in the way of everybody's frustrated ranting.

It's unbelievable how you are hanging on to this line. The camera was focused on the referee whilst he viewed the monitor and continued to be on him when he turned away from it and continued to be on him when he gave the internationally recognised hand signal was for a foul. All of these things confirm he gave a foul.

Edited October 13, 2023 by jimbaxters

[craigkillie]

6 minutes ago, Shuggie_Murray7 said:

So that would surely make the on-field decision after the VAR check an offside, as opposed the the referee signalling that it's a foul?

Again, far too much faith is being put in one instance of a guy pointing somewhere. We don't know what actual decision the ref gave in that instance, only the referee does really, unless he verbally said it over the VAR comms. Just to be clear again, a decision and a signal are not the same thing.

I've said already, it would be useful to see how the game actually restarted - did the ref have his hand up for an indirect free-kick when it was taken?

Edited October 13, 2023 by craigkillie

[jimbaxters]

Just now, craigkillie said:

Again, far too much faith is being put in one instance of a guy pointing somewhere. We don't know what actual decision the ref gave in that instance, only the referee does really, unless he verbally said it over the VAR comms.

I've said already, it would be useful to see how the game actually restarted - did the ref have his hand up for an indirect free-kick when it was taken?

John McGinn, who was actually on the pitch with the referee has said the referee said it was a foul.

[Donathan]

5 minutes ago, Honest_Man#1 said:

 

In that case, other than the dream scenario of a draw on Sunday, I’m definitely in the Spain to win and confirm qualification camp if we can still secure pot 2, whereas I was starting to sway towards Norway winning to give us a chance of topping the group. I completely understand people just wanting qualified asap, but being pot 1/2 at the tournament vs pot 3/4 is a huge difference in terms of chances of progression.

I think a draw is the perfect result for us either way.

 

Lets also hope Netherlands/France is a draw tonight 

[craigkillie]

Just now, jimbaxters said:

John McGinn, who was actually on the pitch with the referee has said the referee said it was a foul.

This has already been covered several times on this thread, but McGinn did not say that. At no point does he say that the referee actually told anyone anything.

[Skyline Drifter]

23 minutes ago, Shuggie_Murray7 said:

The crux of the issue is we're all still here more than 12 hours later debating why the goal was chalked off. That, to me, does not hit the criteria for a "clear and obvious error".

Which is a complete red herring as the criteria of "clear and obvious" has no application to offside decisions. Offsides are either offside or they are not, It they are offside by 1cm they are still offside.

17 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

Like the rest of the thread, the last three pages contain absolutely no evidence for offside being the decision. This is because it was disallowed for a foul.

It really wasn't.

30 minutes ago, eez-eh said:

I think if Spain whip the ball across the box and into the net, and there’s a Spanish player in an offside position, standing right in front of Gunn, everyone on here is screaming for it.

It’s still infuriating - it’s incredibly soft, it was an absolute banger of a goal and the decision making process was also farcical. But anyone who tries to say they aren’t claiming for that if the roles are reversed is at it IMO.

100% we are. And we'd be absolutely indignant (rightly) if it wasn't given as offside.

I get the upset from people who are convinced he's given a foul. It's never a foul and it's obvious (to me) that isn't what they are looking at on screen pitchside. I don't get the upset from those who are either saying it wasn't offside, or it wasn't interference. It was both.

[Molotov]

39 minutes ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

A bit disappointing imho.

A bit like the  England game

 

We are up against superior opponents. Given where we were a few years ago it’s incredible that we are top of this qualifying group. 

The England game was a friendly and Clarke used it to try out alternative tactics. 

It’s not disappointing. It’s fcuking magic after literally years of failure. 

Learn to live in the moment and appreciate that the English and Spanish FA lump hundreds of millions into their grassroots and national squads in comparison to what the SFA is currently able to do. 

[Virtual Insanity]

Just now, Skyline Drifter said:

Offsides are either offside or they are not, It they are offside by 1cm they are still offside.

Right. But there is absolutely no way for VAR to conclusively prove this fact on such margins.