Rapist sentenced to community service

[parsforlife]

Punishment isn’t something that should really be considered in the criminal system.    The entire aim should be 1. Prevention of crime in the first place,  2. To make sure the biggest perpetrators of crime(those with past history) are suitably reformed they don’t continue to commit crimes.

Re-offending rates are ridiculous and we know for certain that fear of punishment doesn’t prevent crime.   Therefore focus on punishing offenders is nothing more a slightly more liberal revenge fantasy.

On the whole u25 thing, it’s a fucking excellent concept and the type of crime doesn’t matter.  We know the country has a massive problem at chucking kids away and getting hardened criminals back, that and the incredibly poor outcomes of those who face jail time early vs their peers means we must do better at preventing the predicable path.

You can’t accept the basics of psychology for some crimes and not others,  the principles are the same and the probability of making the wrong choice is the same for younger adults for the same reasons. 

That doesn’t mean we should consider all crimes equal for youngsters, clearly we shouldn’t, but the factors of underestimating consequences and in particular importance calculation of risk are still the same.

I wonder if perhaps a recommendation of percentage factors should be given to judges, though I’m not sure how exact that can be.

[Trogdor]

1 hour ago, s_dog said:

I agree with this. The idea that people under 25 aren't fully developed and that they don't recognise the consequences of their actions might be true for some things but crimes against an individual, and especially violent crimes like this, that's nonsense.

Aye, the dichotomy around age in this country is bizarre.

So many things can be done at 16 or 18 - big decisions but we're saying that under 25 should be considered differently for criminal acts. I can't quite square that circle. I know it's not a binary you're either old enough or not but it's all a bit of a muddle at the moment. I maybe need to do some reading on the subject matter tbh.

In principle, it's hard to argue with the data that we really don't do rehabilitation well and prison doesn't actually work.

I'm certainly not in favour of that bam Anderson wanting to bring back capital punishment either. Or castration as someone mentioned earlier.

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by Trogdor

[HI HAT]

Think I read that Donald Finlay was the defence lawyer and Hogg was going to appeal against the sentence. He should be in jail now at the start of a long sentence for what he’s done. 

[hk blues]

9 hours ago, Trogdor said:

Aye, the dichotomy around age in this country is bizarre.

So many things can be done at 16 or 18 - big decisions but we're saying that under 25 should be considered differently for criminal acts. I can't quite square that circle. I know it's not a binary you're either old enough or not but it's all a bit of a muddle at the moment. I maybe need to do some reading on the subject matter tbh.

In principle, it's hard to argue with the data that we really don't do rehabilitation well and prison doesn't actually work.

I'm certainly not in favour of that bam Anderson wanting to bring back capital punishment either. Or castration as someone mentioned earlier.

 

I don't know - from what I can see the re-offending rate is 30% or so (seems much lower than I expected) so for 70% of prisoners it works.  

[vikingTON]

16 minutes ago, hk blues said:

I don't know - from what I can see the re-offending rate is 30% or so (seems much lower than I expected) so for 70% of prisoners it works.  

You cannot draw that conclusion without considering the likelihood of prisoners to reoffend without spending time in jail, as well as the broader outcomes for those who come out of the prison system. 

[hk blues]

10 minutes ago, virginton said:

You cannot draw that conclusion without considering the likelihood of prisoners to reoffend without spending time in jail, as well as the broader outcomes for those who come out of the prison system. 

Agreed.  

But, the statistic doesn't seem to support the idea that prison doesn't work from the aspect of rehabilitation. 

[No_Problemo]

11 hours ago, Trogdor said:

Aye, the dichotomy around age in this country is bizarre.

So many things can be done at 16 or 18 - big decisions but we're saying that under 25 should be considered differently for criminal acts. I can't quite square that circle. I know it's not a binary you're either old enough or not but it's all a bit of a muddle at the moment. I maybe need to do some reading on the subject matter tbh.

In principle, it's hard to argue with the data that we really don't do rehabilitation well and prison doesn't actually work.

I'm certainly not in favour of that bam Anderson wanting to bring back capital punishment either. Or castration as someone mentioned earlier.

 

Around 25% of adults in the UK in prison are care experienced. This is pretty wild and indicative of numerous failings, but the justice system is part of that. In Scotland, the government still has a responsibility for CE young people until they turn 26. 

Obviously this is only a part of the sentencing guidelines, but it is pretty important they are afforded a chance for their brain to develop consequential thinking as it will most likely be so far behind their peers due to childhood trauma - ultimately parts of this trauma imposed by the state by assuming parental rights for them. Under the previous sentencing guidance, you would have 18 and 19 year olds, with the brain development of someone much younger being sentenced as a fully grown adult. 

[MEADOWXI]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-65211302

 

12 year old just charged with murder for this car crash yesterday, should we open a book on what sentence he'll get, assuming found guilty.

[coprolite]

12 hours ago, parsforlife said:

Punishment isn’t something that should really be considered in the criminal system.    

Why not? 

I'd say that alongside deterrence and rehabilitation that's a main purpose of having a criminal justice system. 

[ICTChris]

23 minutes ago, MEADOWXI said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-65211302

 

12 year old just charged with murder for this car crash yesterday, should we open a book on what sentence he'll get, assuming found guilty.

Again, open for correction by the legal eagles but I think that when children this young are convicted of serious crimes they get an open sentence.  IIRC the Bulger killers were sentenced to be detained at 'Her Majesty's pleasure', same as Mary Bell.

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

On 06/04/2023 at 11:49, ICTChris said:

The case of Sean Hogg has been in the media this week. Hogg was convicted of the rape of a 13 year old girl on multiple occasions between March and June 2018.  Hogg was 17 years old when the offences took place.  The controversy has resulted from the sentence - Hogg was sentenced to 270 hours of community service, was placed under supervision and ordered to sign the sex offenders register for three years.

The fact that someone has avoided prison for rape and that the victim is a 13 year old girl has caused widespread outrage.  Denise Clair, who brought a successful civil action against David Robertson and David Goodwillie for rape, said "[the sentence is] an embarrassment to the Scottish justice system and extremely deflating for victims.  Rape has the same devastating and lifelong impact regardless of the offenders age.  Where is the deterrent and what message does this send out? This is not justice". 

Campaigner Ellie Wilson, whose rapist was jailed last year, said "I think it is absolutely appalling, an insult.  All it is going to do is discourage victims and survivors from wanting to come forward.  I do not see how it is appropriate to hand down a community payback order for rape, there are some crimes - rape being one of them - which require adequate punishment, and that punishment can only be in prison."

The setence has widely been attributed to new guidelines for sentencing under 25s, which specify that the sentence must be "fair and proportionate" and take into account the level of culapbility and harm.  Primary regard must be given to rehabilitation.  Some have argued that the judge overstepped the mark with this sentence, others have said sentences like this are an inevitable outcome of these guidelines.  

What do P&Bers think of this case and the sentence? 

I'm not usually one to demand tougher punishments as a knee-jerk reaction, but this is unreal.

Rape should always carry a lengthly jail sentence, with the perpetrator being on 'the list' for life IMO.

Community service and a mere three years on the register?  What an embarrassment.  I wonder how the victim feels.

[Elric]

3 hours ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

  I wonder how the victim feels.

The problem is that no-one in the Justice system really cares about the victim it is all about the accused and their rights.

"Last year the the Scottish Sentencing Council recommended an "individualistic approach" for under 25s which takes into account their life experiences.

It argued that the proposed changes would help reduce reoffending.

The council said its decision was based on scientific evidence that the brain is not fully developed below that age.

Human rights lawyer John Scott told BBC Radio's Good Morning Scotland that the guideline also recognises that many young offenders have suffered abuse or neglect."

At 25 unable to know what is right from wrong but able to marry, vote, fight for your country etc.  Surely the abuse and neglect should be picked up at an early age, while at school, and procedures put in place.

 

[RawB93]

20 minutes ago, Elric said:

Surely the abuse and neglect should be picked up at an early age, while at school, and procedures put in place.

Correct.

However, this doesn't cease to be the case once that person is found to have committed a criminal offence.

[No_Problemo]

45 minutes ago, Elric said:

The problem is that no-one in the Justice system really cares about the victim it is all about the accused and their rights.

"Last year the the Scottish Sentencing Council recommended an "individualistic approach" for under 25s which takes into account their life experiences.

It argued that the proposed changes would help reduce reoffending.

The council said its decision was based on scientific evidence that the brain is not fully developed below that age.

Human rights lawyer John Scott told BBC Radio's Good Morning Scotland that the guideline also recognises that many young offenders have suffered abuse or neglect."

At 25 unable to know what is right from wrong but able to marry, vote, fight for your country etc.  Surely the abuse and neglect should be picked up at an early age, while at school, and procedures put in place.

 

Do you think once people suffer abuse and neglect it just magically gets better when/if they are removed from that place? 

It affects them in numerous ways, but particularly their brain development which is the entire point. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by No_Problemo

[Newbornbairn]

Poor things. 

[highlandcowden]

21 hours ago, ICTChris said:

Again, open for correction by the legal eagles but I think that when children this young are convicted of serious crimes they get an open sentence.  IIRC the Bulger killers were sentenced to be detained at 'Her Majesty's pleasure', same as Mary Bell.

I'm pretty sure that's the child's equivalent to the life sentence an adult would get

[The Moonster]

On 06/04/2023 at 20:05, The Derry said:

Should let a 13 year old rape him and see how he likes it.

What the f**k?

Anyway, a guy well known around West Dunbartonshire was recently jailed for 11 years for raping 3 people between 2005 and 2011, one of the victims being underage at the time too - https://www.scotland.police.uk/what-s-happening/news/2023/march/paul-callanin-sentenced-to-11-years-for-serious-sexual-offences-in-west-dunbartonshire/

It was a pretty mental case, the guy had loads of friends and family supporting him at court and the victims had said they were being intimidated by them, being called liars etc. One of the people there supporting him subsequently lost her job after one of the victims posted on facebook about her being there intimidating victims of a rape case. Given this guy would've been under 25 when the acts were carried out it very much seems like the judges interpretation of the laws are the difference here.

[Busta Nut]

Has anyone murdered this bloke yet? The family must be plotting it.

[MacDuffman]

https://news.sky.com/story/young-men-given-lighter-prison-sentences-for-attempted-murder-in-edinburgh-due-to-age-12867430

Another 3 getting away with attempted murder.

No thought whatsoever about the poor guy thats now in a wheelchair.

Scum defence Lawyer & dodery old b*****d judge.

[ICTChris]

To be fair, there have been appallingly lenient sentences for serious violent crimes prior to the new sentencing guidelines.  A few years ago, a group of young men went on a rampage through Edinburgh, assaulting people as they went, culminating in killing a man outside a pub in Leith.  One was found guilty of culpable homicide and got four years, another was found guilty of assault and recieved unpaid work.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/killer-tragic-shaun-woodburn-banned-23162437