Steve Clarke - in/out/general discussion

[ekok]

3 hours ago, Hendricks said:

So you had a “fantastic 10 days” but are now throwing the towel in and won’t be renewing or going to “any more games”. Sounds like you’re cutting off your nose to spite your face there chief! I’m pretty sure you’ll calm down and reflect on that stance

Hi I really don't think I will change my mind. Still support the team and in absolute awe of our supporters,  wish every success going forward.  Been in this movie for about 60 years,  just can't climb that hill again. Not so much throwing in the towel as can't cope with the disappointment any  more.

Of course only had the trip because we played so well to qualify,  so that was a huge positive. The gut wrenching,  soul destroying,  pitiful manner in which we played on Sunday broke my resolve and my heart .

[Gordon EF]

57 minutes ago, Chripper said:

6 of our 11 players against Hungary play in the English Championship/SPL.

Yes.

7 of these "jobbers" play in the German Bundesliga and 2 play in Serie A.

Oliver Burke plays in the Bundesliga. I think we can put that argument in the bin, where it belongs.

Austria are clearly not "jobbers". But the level of individual talent available to them isn't miles off what we have.

[ogoftheskye]

13 hours ago, FalkirkBairn2021 said:

Why have Austria miraculously improved under Rangnick?

Indeed, why did we go from 74th to 13th in the rankings under Smith and Mk1 McLeish? It wasn't via an abundance of talent that's for sure.

[Chripper]

13 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Oliver Burke plays in the Bundesliga. I think we can put that argument in the bin, where it belongs.

Austria are clearly not "jobbers". But the level of individual talent available to them isn't miles off what we have.

The aforementioned seven players have thirty years of German Bundesliga experience between them.

Burke has two years experience.

So no, we can't bin anything. We're talking about experience here.

If people genuinely think 6 SPL/English Championship players are enough to compete at this level then they are wrong.

As far as I'm concerned, qualifying for the Euros with our general standard of players is success.

If we want to compete then the powers that be have to undergo major surgery.

They won't, though, as the SFA are fine with settling for qualification, the Old Firm are fine dominated Scottish football and the other 10 SPL teams are happy just to survive.

[Gordon EF]

1 hour ago, Chripper said:

The aforementioned seven players have thirty years of German Bundesliga experience between them.

Burke has two years experience.

So no, we can't bin anything. We're talking about experience here.

If people genuinely think 6 SPL/English Championship players are enough to compete at this level then they are wrong.

As far as I'm concerned, qualifying for the Euros with our general standard of players is success.

If we want to compete then the powers that be have to undergo major surgery.

 

 

They won't, though, as the SFA are fine with settling for qualification, the Old Firm are fine dominated Scottish football and the other 10 SPL teams are happy just to survive.

 

Against Hungary, Scotland started with 5 players who currently either play in the Scottish Premier or English Championship, not 6.

3 of those 5 each have multiple years of English Premier League experience.

Of the two that are left, Ralston and McGregor, McGregor has a significant amount of international and European club experience.

What Austria are doing with what they have is impressive. What we're doing with what we have is not.

[Chripper]

48 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Against Hungary, Scotland started with 5 players who currently either play in the Scottish Premier or English Championship, not 6.

3 of those 5 each have multiple years of English Premier League experience.

Of the two that are left, Ralston and McGregor, McGregor has a significant amount of international and European club experience.

What Austria are doing with what they have is impressive. What we're doing with what we have is not.

Yeah. Sorry, my bad. I including Hendry in that.

Yes. But with which teams? The only players that Scotland have who play at the real top level in Robertson and McTominay. McGinn has had a great season but till this past season he's done well with a mid table Villa.

After the Germany match he said that Scotland were "scared". That to me tells me that the lack of experience within the squad is a major issue.

What would happen if Hendry, Gunn, Adams, Hanley, Ralston, Robertson, McKenna, McTominay, McGinn, McGregor and Gilmour joined Manchester City as 1st team player and were coached by Guardiola?

They'd be relegated.

This is what we are asking of our current players. We're asking them to compete against the best in Europe.

I'd say that the Scotland fans are as accountable as Clarke.

Take one of my previous comments. I ended it with "Scottish football needs an overhaul".

Four people agreed and four people disagreed.

Apparently, half of Scotland fans are completely comfortable and happy with the current state of Scottish football, as by association, the Scottish national team.

These people don't want things to improve.

Edited Thursday at 20:57 by Chripper

[LiviLion]

2 hours ago, DA Baracus said:

None of our players play in the SPL.

Jack Hendry does tbf

[Insert Amusing Pseudonym]

2 hours ago, Chripper said:

Yeah. Sorry, my bad. I including Hendry in that.

Yes. But with which teams? The only players that Scotland have who play at the real top level in Robertson and McTominay. McGinn has had a great season but till this past season he's done well with a mid table Villa.

After the Germany match he said that Scotland were "scared". That to me tells me that the lack of experience within the squad is a major issue.

What would happen if Hendry, Gunn, Adams, Hanley, Ralston, Robertson, McKenna, McTominay, McGinn, McGregor and Gilmour joined Manchester City as 1st team player and were coached by Guardiola?

They'd be relegated.

This is what we are asking of our current players. We're asking them to compete against the best in Europe.

I'd say that the Scotland fans are as accountable as Clarke.

Take one of my previous comments. I ended it with "Scottish football needs an overhaul".

Four people agreed and four people disagreed.

Apparently, half of Scotland fans are completely comfortable and happy with the current state of Scottish football, as by association, the Scottish national team.

These people don't want things to improve.

You're citing Austria when half their Bundesliga players are young guys at clubs who finished in the bottom half.  Maybe you think there's a mammoth gap between Celtic and Mainz/Wolfsburg but the fact is while they've got a lot of decent players they're overachieving in relation to their ability.

[JS_FFC]

The referee and VAR from Sunday night have both been sent home apparently so maybe Clarke was right to be upset about that. Not sure attacking his nationality was the right way to go about it though. 

[itzdrk]

Just now, JS_FFC said:

The referee and VAR from Sunday night have both been sent home apparently so maybe Clarke was right to be upset about that. Not sure attacking his nationality was the right way to go about it though. 

Not true, unsurprisingly the Sun lies for clicks. 

The referee is fourth official at Switzerland v Italy - https://www.uefa.com/euro2024/match/2036198--switzerland-vs-italy/matchinfo/

[Gordopolis]

On 26/06/2024 at 10:07, VictorOnopko said:

Indeed. And the interesting question is - why have they been on such a strong upward trajectory since we got a win and a draw off them in the World Cup qualifiers, leading to their superb, free-flowing, attacking showing in these Euros, while we've just come 24th out of 24 and completely humiliated ourselves?

Interesting as well to note that their star wing back, David Alaba, is absent for this tournament due to injury, but you really wouldn't know it. They're brave, sharp, organised and full of belief.

[Bing.McCrosby]

42 minutes ago, Gordopolis said:

Interesting as well to note that their star wing back, David Alaba, is absent for this tournament due to injury, but you really wouldn't know it. They're brave, sharp, organised and full of belief.

Na now way, we're the only team that can have players unavailable.

[VictorOnopko]

59 minutes ago, Gordopolis said:

Interesting as well to note that their star wing back, David Alaba, is absent for this tournament due to injury, but you really wouldn't know it. They're brave, sharp, organised and full of belief.

Based on what I have read on here recently it must be mainly to do with population size and immigration.  Those factors are far more important to national footballing success at any given finals than, say, having an outstanding manager who chooses the right tactics and can adapt to the game in front of him.

[The Algebraist]

6 hours ago, Gordopolis said:

Interesting as well to note that their star wing back, David Alaba, is absent for this tournament due to injury, but you really wouldn't know it. They're brave, sharp, organised and full of belief.

As were we until the turn of the year.

I am struggling to find the study, but there was a big research piece done about football teams' long term performance, the results of which basically showed that teams have good and bad patches but return to an average unless some other factor changes. This will happen regardless of whether they change manager or short term tactical approach, which may occasionally affect the speed of a change but not the change itself. You can't ultimately maintain a peak, long term improvement requires structural change to improve the average.

I think Clarke likely benefitted from a huge peak in qualifying and is now struggling in a trough. How deep is hard to say though, it wasn't so long ago that slogging to beat Gibraltar and failing to beat other "Pot 2" teams was the norm.

Our average has definitely improved, probably partly because we have some better players but also because Clarke and others have made structural changes. The most obvious of these are a clear culture and playing philosophy but that's just the surface level stuff, there is hopefully lots we aren't seeing. 

That said it's concerning that we haven't brought our best game to a tournament. I actually think our philosophy got in the way these last few weeks simply because we didn't have the bodies we needed to play it well. I can also see why it must have been very tempting to maintain it though and as crap as it was to watch it almost, almost worked.

Edit: This article is based on the first study that others jumped off of to look at other factors https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23724517

Edited Friday at 15:53 by The Algebraist

[ScottishZizou]

On 24/06/2024 at 13:36, ScottishZizou said:

Here is a list of all of the countries who have achieved a greater feat that Scotland since the Euros were expanded to 24 teams and have got out of a group:

1- France 2- Switzerland 3- Wales 4- England 5- Slovakia 6- Germany 7- Poland 8- Northern Ireland 9- Croatia 10- Spain 11- Italy 12- Belgium 13- Ireland 14- Hungary 15- Iceland 16- Portugal 17- Netherlands 18- Austria 19- Ukraine 20- Czech Republic 21- Sweden 22- Denmark.

As things stand right now, 23- Slovenia, 24- Romania, 25- Turkey will be added to this list. Potentially they might not but there is also the possibility Albania, Georgia or Serbia could take their place or qualify too so it seems fair to assume this list will be up to around 25.

We have achieved NOTHING extraordinary in terms of major tournaments, we have done less than almost every other non-tinpot nation in Europe. 

Clarke has broken the not qualifying for tournaments thing when it's never been easier to do so then routinely crapped the bed when we have had a chance to do something, including the playoff loss to Ukraine. He simply has to go.

The results are in and 4 more countries have now made it out the group, Georgia, Slovenia, Romania and Turkey.

Making that 26 countries who have achieved more in major tournaments than we have since 2016. 

[2426255]

15 minutes ago, ScottishZizou said:

The results are in and 4 more countries have now made it out the group, Georgia, Slovenia, Romania and Turkey.

Making that 26 countries who have achieved more in major tournaments than we have since 2016. 

Still angry?

[Bing.McCrosby]

6 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Still angry?

Maybe time to let it go for a few day eh mate? Thats like 5 days posting the same 3 things

[ScottishZizou]

40 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Still angry?

Understandably pretty disappointed in Scotland's efforts. 

You still adding minimal content of any quality yet commenting on every post?

[Theroadlesstravelled]

He been punted yet?

 

[Binos]

He'll definitely be given to the world cup

but will he survive the pumpings we'll get in the nations league