2023/24 New Season New Hope.

[Jordi1977]

Broxburn fan in peace...

Other than a wee early scare when Dalbeattie took the lead, it was pretty much one way traffic with Broxburn mostly knocking the ball around, rarely pushing themselves beyond 2nd gear. Both Star goalies each made 3 or 4 really good saves to keep the score down.

I've seen it mentioned before... but the main difference between South and the rest is the competitive edge. When Dalbeattie actually got the ball, w or 3 times they knocked it around quite nicely. But Broxburn were a bit quicker, bit fitter, bit stronger, had that little extra competitive edge... and all that combined was just the difference on the night.

Dalbeattie kept going to the end... indeed the game ended with play up near the Broxburn goal, but it'll be a long drive back to Dalbeattie tonight.

[Clyde01]

Despite getting absolutely gubbed the Dalbeattie no20 did catch my eye with how good he was at retaining possession. No surprise to see it was Dan Carmichael who has played at a decent level.

Having taken in both legs the gulf between the sides was enormous, there is no way the sos should be at tier 6.

[vikingTON]

37 minutes ago, Clyde01 said:

Having taken in both legs the gulf between the sides was enormous, there is no way the sos should be at tier 6.

For what purpose should this change be made? Any football club that is good enough to progressing upwards in the LL catchment area already has the opportunity to do so. The only roadblock to this is not in fact the presence of the SoS league at tier 6, but rather the long-term failure of WoS clubs to put ground infrastructure before their first team squad. 

There will *obviously* be a period of dominant West teams pushing through that bottleneck in the near future, but the relevant question is this: how will each region look like in a decade or 15 years' time? Would Dunbar United or Largs Thistle be inherently of a higher quality than Gretna and Dalbeattie, that competing in a play-off is beneath their dignity? After the supposed big-hitters have already left the East/West leagues to be replaced by what... Broomhill and Caley Braves etc.? 

The reality is that every season is a calibration of the existing pyramid that reduces the major imbalances at its creation. There's nothing in the current structure that prevents that from continuing to the point where a healthy equilibrium is reached. 

[Clyde01]

3 minutes ago, virginton said:

For what purpose should this change be made? Any football club that is good enough to progressing upwards in the LL catchment area already has the opportunity to do so. The only roadblock to this is not in fact the presence of the SoS league at tier 6, but rather the long-term failure of WoS clubs to put ground infrastructure before their first team squad. 

There will *obviously* be a period of dominant West teams pushing through that bottleneck in the near future, but the relevant question is this: how will each region look like in a decade or 15 years' time? Would Dunbar United or Largs Thistle be inherently of a higher quality than Gretna and Dalbeattie, that competing in a play-off is beneath their dignity? After the supposed big-hitters have already left the East/West leagues to be replaced by what... Broomhill and Caley Braves etc.? 

The reality is that every season is a calibration of the existing pyramid that reduces the major imbalances at its creation. There's nothing in the current structure that prevents that from continuing to the point where a healthy equilibrium is reached. 

The purpose would be that Dumfries and Galloway doesn’t really warrant having a full tier 6 league to itself and that it should be merged with the WoS league system. It’s really just a quirk of the way the pyramid came together that it sits at that level.
The fact that Threave (a traditionally strong sos side) have now stalled in div3 of the west and the playoff results for Dalbeattie adds further evidence that the league is totally misplaced in terms of quality.

Obviously the gulf in quality will reduce as more big hitters move into the lowland league over time but I still don’t see a SoS winning the playoff anytime soon. 

[vikingTON]

20 minutes ago, Clyde01 said:

The purpose would be that Dumfries and Galloway doesn’t really warrant having a full tier 6 league to itself and that it should be merged with the WoS league system.

That's not a purpose - that's an assertion. Whether it has a 'full tier 6 league' or not has absolutely zero impact on the overall functioning of the league setup. So what purpose would changing this have? 

Quote

The fact that Threave (a traditionally strong sos side) have now stalled in div3 of the west and the playoff results for Dalbeattie adds further evidence that the league is totally misplaced in terms of quality.

Still not seeing any purpose from your deep-seated concern about whatever is impeding these top quality non-league teams from progressing though. 

Quote

Obviously the gulf in quality will reduce as more big hitters move into the lowland league over time but I still don’t see a SoS winning the playoff anytime soon. 

15 years isn't any time soon, but it'll take at least that until the quirks of the pyramid setup (as you describe it) could possibly resolve themselves under any system anyway. 

I don't understand what the issue is, given that there is literally no obstacle placed in the way of the stronger regional champions to progress. If you're better than the opposition, you go up. 

You will never achieve some ideal-type, equal setup btw. Take a look at the nick of the English National League North - a setup that has by now chucked any semblance of regional coherence in pursuit of 'equalising' club attainment across different tiers and regions.

With the far more limited resources for clubs in the non-league tiers of Scotland, I know which option I'd favour to ensure the health of grassroots football in every part of the country rather than just the Central Belt. 

Edited May 24 by vikingTON

[Clyde01]

4 minutes ago, virginton said:

That's not a purpose - that's an assertion. Whether it has a 'full tier 6 league' or not has absolutely zero impact on the overall functioning of the league setup. So what purpose would changing this have? 

Still not seeing any purpose from your deep-seated concern about whatever is impeding these top quality non-league teams from progressing though. 

15 years isn't any time soon, but it'll take at least that until the quirks of the pyramid setup (as you describe it) could possibly resolve themselves under any system anyway. 

I don't understand what the issue is, given that there is literally no obstacle placed in the way of the stronger regional champions to progress. If you're better than the opposition, you go up. 

You will never achieve some ideal-type, equal setup btw. Take a look at the nick of the English National League North - a setup that has by now chucked any semblance of regional coherence in pursuit of 'equalising' club attainment across different tiers and regions.

With the far more limited resources for clubs in the non-league tiers of Scotland, I know which option I'd favour to ensure the health of grassroots football in every part of the country rather than just the Central Belt. 

I think you might be overestimating my strength of feeling on the matter. I’m not losing any sleep over it!

As you say the pyramid functions as it is and the SoS league is causing no obstacle. My point was that it’s not a great look when two champions of the same tier are separated by a 12-2 agg score and the SoS is nowhere near the quality of the other tier 6 leagues. That much is unarguable. 

[An Absolute Imposter]

9 hours ago, Jordi1977 said:

Broxburn fan in peace...

Other than a wee early scare when Dalbeattie took the lead, it was pretty much one way traffic with Broxburn mostly knocking the ball around, rarely pushing themselves beyond 2nd gear. Both Star goalies each made 3 or 4 really good saves to keep the score down.

I've seen it mentioned before... but the main difference between South and the rest is the competitive edge. When Dalbeattie actually got the ball, w or 3 times they knocked it around quite nicely. But Broxburn were a bit quicker, bit fitter, bit stronger, had that little extra competitive edge... and all that combined was just the difference on the night.

Dalbeattie kept going to the end... indeed the game ended with play up near the Broxburn goal, but it'll be a long drive back to Dalbeattie tonight.

That is what I see attending a lot of SOSFL games since retiring down here. The competitiveness that is bred into the central belters from year dot.

The clubs play football the correct way, hoofball has been left in the past thankfully.

What is missing or lacking is what is called a plan to get it from your own goal to the opposition goal with pace, direction and objective. It can be passing for passing's sake at times.

I see it at senior level with the inter region cup matches, with the 2 south development teams, with Threave Rovers in the WOSFL.

There is a noticeable difference in the fitness levels between SOSFL and the 2 northern leagues. Why that is, I can offer no insight.

As clubs in the WOSFL & EOSFL become more professional, clubs in the SOSFL are in danger of being left behind.

[EdinburghBlue]

8 hours ago, virginton said:

For what purpose should this change be made? Any football club that is good enough to progressing upwards in the LL catchment area already has the opportunity to do so. The only roadblock to this is not in fact the presence of the SoS league at tier 6, but rather the long-term failure of WoS clubs to put ground infrastructure before their first team squad. 

There will *obviously* be a period of dominant West teams pushing through that bottleneck in the near future, but the relevant question is this: how will each region look like in a decade or 15 years' time? Would Dunbar United or Largs Thistle be inherently of a higher quality than Gretna and Dalbeattie, that competing in a play-off is beneath their dignity? After the supposed big-hitters have already left the East/West leagues to be replaced by what... Broomhill and Caley Braves etc.? 

The reality is that every season is a calibration of the existing pyramid that reduces the major imbalances at its creation. There's nothing in the current structure that prevents that from continuing to the point where a healthy equilibrium is reached. 

I must be getting old. I now occasionally find myself agreeing with virginton 

[An Absolute Imposter]

1 hour ago, EdinburghBlue said:

I must be getting old. I now occasionally find myself agreeing with virginton 

see a doctor quick; actually just go straight to a&e.

[patrick thistle]

out of interest, is there any rule which would stop Clydebank from transferring to the SOSL for one season (and presumably winning it), thus having a more assured route to the LL play-offs than them continuing to be Beith's (or another unlicensed team's) bridesmaids in the WOSL?

[Sermani]

2 hours ago, An Absolute Imposter said:

That is what I see attending a lot of SOSFL games since retiring down here. The competitiveness that is bred into the central belters from year dot.

The clubs play football the correct way, hoofball has been left in the past thankfully.

What is missing or lacking is what is called a plan to get it from your own goal to the opposition goal with pace, direction and objective. It can be passing for passing's sake at times.

I see it at senior level with the inter region cup matches, with the 2 south development teams, with Threave Rovers in the WOSFL.

There is a noticeable difference in the fitness levels between SOSFL and the 2 northern leagues. Why that is, I can offer no insight.

As clubs in the WOSFL & EOSFL become more professional, clubs in the SOSFL are in danger of being left behind.

Competitive - sparse population. When you start playing youth football at Primary School age you are still playing against the same boys 25 years later. You get to know there strengths and weekness by the time you hit your teenage years.

[Eadie is God]

13 minutes ago, patrick thistle said:

out of interest, is there any rule which would stop Clydebank from transferring to the SOSL for one season (and presumably winning it), thus having a more assured route to the LL play-offs than them continuing to be Beith's (or another unlicensed team's) bridesmaids in the WOSL?

There is no obstacle other than travel costs and lack of competition.

If the play off was lost then the club would be stuck in an uncompetitive league and recruitment would be difficult.

[Benidorm]

I think a collective question for the league is this the appropriate path of progression for its members? Every time in these play offs they play stronger teams it's a cricket score. Dalbeattie this season have been humped against Craigmark, who just about avoided relegation from the second division, Banks O’Dee and Broxburn and barely beating 10 man Carluke who were a lower end division 4 team. A SOS team is not getting promoted to the LL now. That's not a question anymore. The league can almost act invisible at tier 6 as they aren't really going to get a flukey promotion, the gulf is that big, but it's now stuck with a glass ceiling. Is sending a team to be lambs to the slaughter every year worthwhile?
 

Edited May 25 by Benidorm

[FairWeatherFan]

21 minutes ago, Benidorm said:

Is sending a team to be lambs to the slaughter every year worthwhile?
 

Going by the headcount data, the Dalbeattie v. Broxburn game had 1,871. If that's even close to true that's pretty worthwhile for them.

[Bluenortherner]

On 24/05/2024 at 08:07, An Absolute Imposter said:

On a separate note if Broomhill St.Pat's were to be relegated, every single club will go back to the juniors as that will be the end of the world for senior football in the west.

Absolute garbage!

[Bluenortherner]

20 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Going by the headcount data, the Dalbeattie v. Broxburn game had 1,871. If that's even close to true that's pretty worthwhile for them.

I think that attendance is being confused with the Stranraer play off game?

[An Absolute Imposter]

1 hour ago, Bluenortherner said:

I think that attendance is being confused with the Stranraer play off game?

Agree, was at the Islecroft 2 - 300 at a quick guesstimate from memory. Quite disappointed at the local turnout. Possibly majority were down from West Lothian.

[An Absolute Imposter]

Some interesting and thought provoking posts from various viewpoints regarding the SOSFL and tier 6.

I feel I occupy a slightly advantageous place in that I do not follow any specific club or league or whatever. I just go to games from Tier 6 down so can possibly be a bit more objective and dispassionate.

As all know the SOSFL almost found itself to be a Tier 6 League by accident at the inception of the Lowland; being only one if two eligible leagues within the Lowland catchment area with the SJFA not taking part back then for whatever reasons.

In the early days, before the mass influx from the Juniors, there was little movement between tiers 5 & 6, so the perceives or actual quality at the tier 6 leagues was not a factor.

But, since the EOSFL growing up and the birth of the WOSFL the attention on tier 6 has increased almost exponentially, so there is much more scrutiny now.

That however is irrelevant to my post just a bit of background information.

It is undeniable that there is a gulf in quality, and in numbers between the 2 leagues up north and the SOSFL.

This from my viewing is putting undue and unwanted pressure on the almost unfortunate SOSFL champion. They like all club's that win a league are deservedly crowned champions of the league they participate in, that then leads to when the problem starts for the SOSFL champion. As they are in a Tier 6 league and if they hold an SFA Licence they are then obliged to take part in the playoff to gain a place in the tier 5 league.

For the 2 other tier 6 champions this foes not present any problems, but for the SOSFL champion the gap in the standard between their tier 6 and the tier 5 is substantial.

This for me shows a weakness, a failing in the pyramid. I know for some the scorelines that are inflicted on the SOSFL in any playoff are part and parcel of a pyramid system and show it is working in that the best team moves up. That is a fair viewpoint from outside.

And for others it highlights that the SOSFL should not be at tier 6. That also is a fair viewpoint.

Herein lies the problem; if one of the tier 6 leagues is noticeably inferior where is the incentive for the clubs in that league.

I believe a pyramid is a place where all teams can look to improve and advance as far as they can but it should also see teams demoted if their standard falls. This upwards and downwards movement allows clubs to find a level playing field over time.

This is where the isolated SOSFL finds itself, it is stagnant with no upwards or downwards movement. There is no avenue for improvement of clubs or players.

The clubs on the SOSFL, although in the pyramid are not actively taking part on it, almost in there for show.

This for me is why the SOSFL clubs need to be properly integrated into the pyramid system via a proper integration with the WOSFL 

Sorry if this is a bit incoherent and disjointed as I am once again sitting outside a venue waiting for my girls to exit after seeing some pop punk princess. Another multi hour drive there and back home in the wee small hours. I am fecked and getting too old forcthis ferrying around.

[DG.Roma]

4 hours ago, An Absolute Imposter said:

Agree, was at the Islecroft 2 - 300 at a quick guesstimate from memory. Quite disappointed at the local turnout. 

As I said before the game, this would have been hugely down to the Stranraer playoff game. Hundreds of potential Islecroft attendees, myself included, were at Stair Park.

[An Absolute Imposter]

16 minutes ago, DG.Roma said:

As I said before the game, this would have been hugely down to the Stranraer playoff game. Hundreds of potential Islecroft attendees, myself included, were at Stair Park.

aye sorry had forgotten about that when I posted. long day up home; Glasgow. visiting family and taking girls to a gig.