craigkillie Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 If Everton and Nottingham Forest didn't want to be punished for cheating, they should have simply not cheated. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bully Wee Villa Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 (edited) 7 hours ago, Salvo Montalbano said: Aye, it's mental the amount of seemingly reasonably intelligent people are giving it "can anyone explain why city haven't been charged yet ?!?!?!" on social media. Man City haven't overspent by the same meaning as say Everton or Nottingham Forest; they've artificially inflated their sponsorships so that it appears they haven't overspent. They've denied the charges, there are various emails that may or may not have been deleted, etc. It's a totally different case. It's also no deterrent to City to see these points deductions - if they do get points docked then the worst case is that they'll get relegated (and even with say a 50 point penalty there's no guarantee of that) but they'll keep the titles, cups and more importantly Champions League title so they'll be happy enough with point penalties. Why would they keep the titles? If they've won them by cheating they have to be taken off them, like Lance Armstrong. I look forward to seeing Villa lift the 2019/20 League Cup. Edited January 16 by Bully Wee Villa 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvo Montalbano Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 2 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said: Why would they keep the titles? If they've won them by cheating they have to be taken off them, like Lance Armstrong. I look forward to seeing Villa lift the 2019/20 League Cup. I mean if they only deduct points and use Everton as precedent. For instance, Everton didn't have to pay back prize money awarded for their finishing place and their final league position will be recorded without any asterisks or notes. The relegated teams of course said that they should be compensated but that seems to have gone nowhere. So the precedent seems to be - pay a fine, get docked points, everything that happened still happened, even if you cheated to get there. FWIW I'd rather their victories were Armstronged and "no winner" or "vacated" was used instead but I don't think that will happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bully Wee Villa Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 It would be very funny if, for all the hype when they sold their souls to Saudi Arabia, the Geordies continue to win nothing and have to watch Sunderland retrospectively awarded another trophy. Make it so. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Gripweed Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 Everton have been their own worst enemies for years, trying to keep up with the club across the park. Remember when Moshiri bought them and the fans were giving it, we're fucking rich. They demanded big signings, they demanded bigger and better managers, they demanded a bigger and better stadium. The owner complied with all the fans demands, but didn't spend wisely. Now their fans are saying it's unfair that it's the fans shouldn't be getting punished. It was basically all down to them in the first place. Leicester and Leeds stuck to the rules and got relegated. Doesn't send out the best of messages, that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molotov Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 26 minutes ago, Musketeer Gripweed said: Everton have been their own worst enemies for years, trying to keep up with the club across the park. They have been an utter shambles for as long as I first started going to their stadium in 1996. Maybe it’s my fault? I will miss the old stadium and the surrounding watering holes. As an aside Everton were hit extremely badly by the ban following Heysel tragedy. They were becoming a dominant force and were unable to enter the premier European competition. They never recovered - losing many star players to clubs who could play in Europe. “On May 6, 1985, Everton clinched their first league championship for 15 years, then added their first European trophy barely a week later. But dreams of competing in the European Cup were dashed when the Heysel Stadium disaster on May 29 led to all English clubs being banned from European competition.” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buchan30 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 https://www.skysports.com/amp/football/news/11095/13049544/man-city-charges-premier-league-chief-executive-richard-masters-confirms-date-set-for-hearing "There is a date set for that proceeding. Unfortunately, I can't tell you when that is but that is progressing. I can't give any details on Man City beyond saying a date has been set, I can't tell you when that date is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crawford Bridge Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 The titty-ninth of February? Flatember the fourth? 8 B.C.? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Gripweed Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 11 hours ago, Molotov said: They have been an utter shambles for as long as I first started going to their stadium in 1996. Maybe it’s my fault? I will miss the old stadium and the surrounding watering holes. As an aside Everton were hit extremely badly by the ban following Heysel tragedy. They were becoming a dominant force and were unable to enter the premier European competition. They never recovered - losing many star players to clubs who could play in Europe. “On May 6, 1985, Everton clinched their first league championship for 15 years, then added their first European trophy barely a week later. But dreams of competing in the European Cup were dashed when the Heysel Stadium disaster on May 29 led to all English clubs being banned from European competition.” I just checked Everton's transfers in 1985 and as I suspected, that was the summer they signed Gary Lineker before selling him a year later for a huge profit They sold an aging Andy Gray back to Villa that summer, I don't think I;'ve heard of any of the others who left that summer, and I certainly don't remember them going on to any great European success. So, on the back of a European ban they signed a top class striker and only won the charity shield in 1985/6. Liverpool won the double. I honestly didn't know Pat Jennings rocked up at Goodison for a season at the age of 41 though. Every day is a school day. https://www.efcstatto.com/transfers/1985-86/ Research is handy, trust me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Scan Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 1 hour ago, Musketeer Gripweed said: I just checked Everton's transfers in 1985 and as I suspected, that was the summer they signed Gary Lineker before selling him a year later for a huge profit They sold an aging Andy Gray back to Villa that summer, I don't think I;'ve heard of any of the others who left that summer, and I certainly don't remember them going on to any great European success. So, on the back of a European ban they signed a top class striker and only won the charity shield in 1985/6. Liverpool won the double. I honestly didn't know Pat Jennings rocked up at Goodison for a season at the age of 41 though. Every day is a school day. https://www.efcstatto.com/transfers/1985-86/ Research is handy, trust me. They won the league again in 1987. They were runners up in the league and Cup in 86. It was a shame they missed out on the European Cup twice 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molotov Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 1 hour ago, Musketeer Gripweed said: I just checked Everton's transfers in 1985 and as I suspected, that was the summer they signed Gary Lineker before selling him a year later for a huge profit They sold an aging Andy Gray back to Villa that summer, I don't think I;'ve heard of any of the others who left that summer, and I certainly don't remember them going on to any great European success. So, on the back of a European ban they signed a top class striker and only won the charity shield in 1985/6. Liverpool won the double. I honestly didn't know Pat Jennings rocked up at Goodison for a season at the age of 41 though. Every day is a school day. https://www.efcstatto.com/transfers/1985-86/ Research is handy, trust me. Losing players like Gary Stevens and Trevor Steven along with Gary Lineker was as a result of Heysel. Lineker went first obviously. There were some other England, Irish, Scottish and Welsh international players of quality. Everton were denied a great opportunity to become a force at the top European competition. They did have a great team at the time - great goalkeeper, solid defence, dynamic and tenacity in midfield and goals up top. Had Everton been able to challenge for the European Cup I’m sure they would have been able to attract better players to replace an ageing Andy Gray, etc. Won FA cup in 1984. runners up 1985, 1986 and 1989. League winners 84/85 & 86/87 being runners up 85/86 They also won ECWC in 1985. What was you quote? “Research is handy, trust me.” Liverpool have been the dominant side in the city for many decades - but that period in the 80s was a special time for Toffee supporters. Let’s agree to disagree on this period as it’s clear our opinions differ. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Gripweed Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 Agreed, the main thing is punishing them for cheating in 2024. As well at Chelsea and Manchester City. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 4 minutes ago, Molotov said: Losing players like Gary Stevens and Trevor Steven along with Gary Lineker was as a result of Heysel. Lineker went first obviously. There were some other England, Irish, Scottish and Welsh international players of quality. Everton were denied a great opportunity to become a force at the top European competition. They did have a great team at the time - great goalkeeper, solid defence, dynamic and tenacity in midfield and goals up top. Had Everton been able to challenge for the European Cup I’m sure they would have been able to attract better players to replace an ageing Andy Gray, etc. Won FA cup in 1984. runners up 1985, 1986 and 1989. League winners 84/85 & 86/87 being runners up 85/86 They also won ECWC in 1985. What was you quote? “Research is handy, trust me.” Liverpool have been the dominant side in the city for many decades - but that period in the 80s was a special time for Toffee supporters. Let’s agree to disagree on this period as it’s clear our opinions differ. It's not quite up there with the opening of the gates at Syracuse in 212 BC but the question of what would have happened if the wall hadn't failed at Heysel is one of the great "What ifs" of history Maybe in an alternate time line they have equalled Aston Villa's or even Forest's tally of European cups Speculating about counterfactual history is fun but you can't take it too seriously Nonetheless to suggest that Everton's decline really started at Heysel would be a contrived and contrarian reading of History What we do know about actual history is that if Everton's ongoing fortunes were diminished it wasn't by enough to exclude them from the "Big Six" looking to break the top flight away financially from the rest of the game that gave us the Barclay Premier League that we all know and love* today Despite their European Cup wins Villa and Forest were not "big six" clubs It is not only far more sensible to chart Everton's decline from 1992 it's also a more satisfying narrative as it becomes the classic story of the inventor being destroyed by their own invention * love, hate or at least take an interest in 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molotov Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 Box 6 = money? Is that the measure these days? When did Man City become a big 6 club? After their takeover? The original big 4 back in the 80s were Liverpool, Everton, United and Arsenal. Going back further other teams dominated for significant periods throughout history. Villa and Forest have achieved much more in Europe top competition than teams like Spurs. Villa are the dominant midlands side. They are one of the oldest and most successful clubs in England, having won the Football League First Division seven times, the FA Cup seven times, the League Cup five times, and the European Cup and European Super Cup once. Until the financial doping of Man City they had only won the league title twice. Last FA Cup was when I was a toddler in the 60s. Modern fitba is pish. I’d sooner watch a Brian Clough Derby/Forest team, Howard Kendal Everton or Ron Saunders/Tony Barton Villa side with a squad less than 14 players any day of the week. Modern fitba is pish. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 17 minutes ago, Molotov said: Box 6 = money? Is that the measure these days? When did Man City become a big 6 club? After their takeover? The original big 4 back in the 80s were Liverpool, Everton, United and Arsenal. Going back further other teams dominated for significant periods throughout history. Villa and Forest have achieved much more in Europe top competition than teams like Spurs. Villa are the dominant midlands side. They are one of the oldest and most successful clubs in England, having won the Football League First Division seven times, the FA Cup seven times, the League Cup five times, and the European Cup and European Super Cup once. Until the financial doping of Man City they had only won the league title twice. Last FA Cup was when I was a toddler in the 60s. Modern fitba is pish. I’d sooner watch a Brian Clough Derby/Forest team, Howard Kendal Everton or Ron Saunders/Tony Barton Villa side with a squad less than 14 players any day of the week. Modern fitba is pish. 40 odd years since their last title, and 71 years between nrs 6 and 7 67 years since their last FA Cup Final win, and 47 years between nrs 6 and 7 Trophies are trophies, and they have quite an impressive array, all the same. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molotov Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 14 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said: 40 odd years since their last title, and 71 years between nrs 6 and 7 67 years since their last FA Cup Final win, and 47 years between nrs 6 and 7 Trophies are trophies, and they have quite an impressive array, all the same. Yup. But in comparison to Birmingham, Coventry, WBA, Leicester Wolves, Walsall, etc they are pretty much the dominant team over the decades. Money in vast amounts has just created a completely different world. I certainly don’t think for the better. Look how our top flight was in the 80s and the challenge in Europe came from clubs outside the bigot brothers as on occasions they could not even qualify for Europe. The changes to the rules allowing for large reserves on bench and 5 substitutions only favours the big clubs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 28 minutes ago, Molotov said: Yup. But in comparison to Birmingham, Coventry, WBA, Leicester Wolves, Walsall, etc they are pretty much the dominant team over the decades. Money in vast amounts has just created a completely different world. I certainly don’t think for the better. Look how our top flight was in the 80s and the challenge in Europe came from clubs outside the bigot brothers as on occasions they could not even qualify for Europe. The changes to the rules allowing for large reserves on bench and 5 substitutions only favours the big clubs. 1/ Wolves were the top dog from the late 40s to late 50s but fell away badly, blotted their copybook getting relegated to division 4, at least Villa only had the ignominy of playing in division 3! 2/ and Bosman. I don't know when the rule that the home club kept all the gate money came in, but that didn't help either, partcicularly in Scotland. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crawford Bridge Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 (edited) Leicester City have won The Barclays. That makes them Midlands top dog as far as I'm concerned. Edited January 17 by Crawford Bridge 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClydeTon Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewDon Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 My new favourite referee/VAR nickname just dropped: "Harra" for Tony Harrington. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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