Two seasons in

[pheasant plucker]

The pyramid rehash was undoubtedly going to take time for levels to sort themselves out. The WOSFL divisions all seem to have worked ok and gradually working out, although you could argue that little has changed for many apart from the introduction of some strange new cup tournaments. The Premier Division in particular seems to have become more competitive evidenced by match results harder to forecast.
Pluses seen are a general commitment to upgrade facilities and become a bit more professional by the clubs who can afford to do so.
The negatives that loom up almost unanimously in talking to fans at our level are the is the loss of a much loved Scottish Cup tournament for our level and for those in the top division the total lack of enthusiasm over the prospect of ‘going up’ to play in the Lowland League.
I’m sure some will have other views but those two points have been the clear negatives I have consistently heard 

[glensmad]

The existence of the WoSFL can't in any way be blamed for the East clubs pulling out of the Scottish Junior Cup. The vast majority of WoSFL clubs still play in it, and the East clubs pulled out of it before the WoSFL was formed.

As for the supposed reluctance to go up to the LL, we'll that's hardly a negative in comparison to the old West Region SJFA where that possibility would never have existed. Whether there is a reluctance or not has still really to be put to the test, as we have only ever had one licenced champion so far, and I know their chairman was and still is gutted that they lost the play-off.

[Shanner]

You rarely if ever hear fans at matches of online enthuse about the prospect of playing in the LL, even the ones who desperately want to progress up the ladder. I'm sure there will be some but I'd say it's a minority. 

I get the impression that it's viewed by most as something that has to be endured to get to League Two if you want to move up (and hopefully not for very long). It could also be  nightmare scenario actually being stuck there as a mid table side for a length of time with the current selection of teams. 

Of course the West League hasn't really helped the division become more attractive by failing to provide a single team to it so far for one reason or another but hopefully that changes soon. 

[jimbaxters]

9 hours ago, glensmad said:

The existence of the WoSFL can't in any way be blamed for the East clubs pulling out of the Scottish Junior Cup. The vast majority of WoSFL clubs still play in it, and the East clubs pulled out of it before the WoSFL was formed.

As for the supposed reluctance to go up to the LL, we'll that's hardly a negative in comparison to the old West Region SJFA where that possibility would never have existed. Whether there is a reluctance or not has still really to be put to the test, as we have only ever had one licenced champion so far, and I know their chairman was and still is gutted that they lost the play-off.

You're not talking about a 'normal' chairman there though. He funds the team and therefore wants to see a return for his money, either in capital or, more likely in personal exposure. As Shanner says, it seems most clubs see the LL as a hurdle rather than a pull. It would be very interesting to poll WoSFL clubs on whether they came across from the Juniors and/or attain a license because they want to progress up the pyramid structure or that they simply wanted to improve their stadia and get a slice of the Scottish Cup cake. I'd bet on the latter being the majority.

[glensmad]

1 hour ago, jimbaxters said:

You're not talking about a 'normal' chairman there though. He funds the team and therefore wants to see a return for his money, either in capital or, more likely in personal exposure. As Shanner says, it seems most clubs see the LL as a hurdle rather than a pull. It would be very interesting to poll WoSFL clubs on whether they came across from the Juniors and/or attain a license because they want to progress up the pyramid structure or that they simply wanted to improve their stadia and get a slice of the Scottish Cup cake. I'd bet on the latter being the majority.

In my personal opinion, when the LL-run WoSFL was first set up and applications were invited, the teams who applied immediately were the teams who really wanted to be part of it and were ambitious to climb the pyramid. After those first few days and weeks when the LL were announcing how many applications they had received, the trickle became a full flood and the West Region SJFA actually contacted all of the remaining clubs and told them to apply to join the WoSFL as the West Region would be closing.

[FairWeatherFan]

Since there's only been a handful of clubs in contention for the WoS Premier, I doubt anyone has given the Lowland League more than a superficial glance.

Don't most of these kind of conversations trend negatively anyway?

Lowland a hurdle to the SPFL. You mean 4x a season, higher ticket prices and just think of all that travel

Thoughts on the Premier: Where's the fixture list? Why'd we get so and so mid-week? I see 'they' got the better fixtures, the fix is in!

[jimbaxters]

3 minutes ago, glensmad said:

In my personal opinion, when the LL-run WoSFL was first set up and applications were invited, the teams who applied immediately were the teams who really wanted to be part of it and were ambitious to climb the pyramid. After those first few days and weeks when the LL were announcing how many applications they had received, the trickle became a full flood and the West Region SJFA actually contacted all of the remaining clubs and told them to apply to join the WoSFL as the West Region would be closing.

Would agree with this. The result being that there are some teams (the vast minority) who REALLY want to progress. The others just want to continue playing and the WoSFL is their medium to do so.

[Greenmachine]

There was no reason for the West Region of the Juniors to be dissolved.

The WoSFL should only have been for clubs who wanted to progress.

[Shanner]

28 minutes ago, Greenmachine said:

There was no reason for the West Region of the Juniors to be dissolved.

The WoSFL should only have been for clubs who wanted to progress.

How would this have worked in practice? 

 

[glensmad]

2 minutes ago, Shanner said:

How would this have worked in practice? 

 

The LL were happy to take as many or as few as applied to join the league. I remember talking to George Fraser after we had applied and he told me it would be viable with 12 teams but was hoping to get it up to 16 for an initial start. They got those numbers applying very quickly, so the league was always going to get off the ground. Those who didn't apply were going to remain in the West Region SJFA, until the West Region decided it was best to keep all the clubs together and persuaded them all to apply to the WoSFL.

[Marten]

37 minutes ago, Greenmachine said:

There was no reason for the West Region of the Juniors to be dissolved.

The WoSFL should only have been for clubs who wanted to progress.

Then you'd end up getting the same mess as in the East with every year a bunch of clubs leaving. There, the first main move was in 2018, and only now you can argue that teams are generally at their level (with perhaps the odd exception).

The whole point of a pyramid is that teams find their level. It's absolutely fine if clubs don't have the ambition to reach the LL or higher. In the end, of the 80 clubs in the WoSFL, there will only be a small minority who can hold themselves at a higher level. Some other clubs will want to go for licensing and again others just want to play their football at their level and nothing else, for those not that much changed really compared to the WRJFA.

[FairWeatherFan]

50 minutes ago, Shanner said:

How would this have worked in practice? 

 

We already know from how the East Region and EoSFL played out. COVID uncertainities would have helped drag things out rather than boundary issues.

WoSFL would try and get a 2020-21 season played regardless, with it being a proper mix of clubs likely could get away with Tier 6 Conferences. What's left of the Juniors probably leave starting until crowds could come in. Trying to figure out what their structure would be.

2021 all those 'Division 4' clubs would apply to the WoSFL and that probably forces the Juniors hand into joining the WoSFL.

[Ginaro]

13 hours ago, pheasant plucker said:

The pyramid rehash was undoubtedly going to take time for levels to sort themselves out. The WOSFL divisions all seem to have worked ok and gradually working out, although you could argue that little has changed for many apart from the introduction of some strange new cup tournaments. The Premier Division in particular seems to have become more competitive evidenced by match results harder to forecast.
The negatives that loom up almost unanimously in talking to fans at our level are the is the loss of a much loved Scottish Cup tournament for our level and for those in the top division the total lack of enthusiasm over the prospect of ‘going up’ to play in the Lowland League.

Not sure how these new cups are "strange" - the League Cup is the same as the former West of Scotland Junior Cup for all west clubs, Strathclyde Cup gives those otherwise idle on Junior Cup matchdays a Scottish Cup route, and then you have the South Challenge Cup which shouldn't be that alien given the east clubs are also involved like the Junior Cup pre-2018.

5 hours ago, Shanner said:

I get the impression that it's viewed by most as something that has to be endured to get to League Two if you want to move up (and hopefully not for very long). It could also be  nightmare scenario actually being stuck there as a mid table side for a length of time with the current selection of teams. 

Of course the West League hasn't really helped the division become more attractive by failing to provide a single team to it so far for one reason or another but hopefully that changes soon. 

I mean if you are stuck in the LL for a length of time, then given there is at least one team is changing each season it won't be with the current selection of teams for long will it...

[jimbaxters]

6 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Not sure how these new cups are "strange" - the League Cup is the same as the former West of Scotland Junior Cup for all west clubs, Strathclyde Cup gives those otherwise idle on Junior Cup matchdays a Scottish Cup route, and then you have the South Challenge Cup which shouldn't be that alien given the east clubs are also involved like the Junior Cup pre-2018.

I mean if you are stuck in the LL for a length of time, then given there is at least one team is changing each season it won't be with the current selection of teams for long will it...

Much longer than if they ran their league like a pyramid league should be ran. i.e. at least one up, one down with play-offs for the other two.

Edited July 10, 2023 by jimbaxters

[Ginaro]

Just now, jimbaxters said:

Much longer than if they ran their league like a pyramid league should be ran. i.e. at least two up, two down

Thanks Captain Obvious. Hopefully that happens soon given the changes in membership since the previous votes against increased promotion/relegation.

[PossilYM]

15 hours ago, pheasant plucker said:

The pyramid rehash was undoubtedly going to take time for levels to sort themselves out. The WOSFL divisions all seem to have worked ok and gradually working out, although you could argue that little has changed for many apart from the introduction of some strange new cup tournaments. The Premier Division in particular seems to have become more competitive evidenced by match results harder to forecast.
Pluses seen are a general commitment to upgrade facilities and become a bit more professional by the clubs who can afford to do so.
The negatives that loom up almost unanimously in talking to fans at our level are the is the loss of a much loved Scottish Cup tournament for our level and for those in the top division the total lack of enthusiasm over the prospect of ‘going up’ to play in the Lowland League.
I’m sure some will have other views but those two points have been the clear negatives I have consistently heard 

Long term the pyramid in the West is killed stone dead if the Big Guns are half hearted about leaving Wosfl.

It's only of time before one the LL clubs in the Greater Glasgow area come down the way.

Broomhill with no Own Goal sponsorship, sports club/boys club or fans to back them up must favourites for the drop eventually.

[jimbaxters]

30 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Thanks Captain Obvious. Hopefully that happens soon given the changes in membership since the previous votes against increased promotion/relegation.

You'll forgive us for not holding our collective breath.

[Shanner]

1 hour ago, Ginaro said:

Not sure how these new cups are "strange" - the League Cup is the same as the former West of Scotland Junior Cup for all west clubs, Strathclyde Cup gives those otherwise idle on Junior Cup matchdays a Scottish Cup route, and then you have the South Challenge Cup which shouldn't be that alien given the east clubs are also involved like the Junior Cup pre-2018.

I mean if you are stuck in the LL for a length of time, then given there is at least one team is changing each season it won't be with the current selection of teams for long will it...

That's a fair point, it will probably seem like a good place to be in another couple of seasons. The real issue is that the WOS should be diminishing at about the same pace as the LL improves but unfortunately nobody has  left it in the upward direction so it doesn't feel like that bad a place to be because the quality is still pretty good overall.

[FairWeatherFan]

For the Ayrshire half of the WoS Premier I can see why there's no rush. For the Glasgow area half I really don't think the Lowland League would make much difference to them.

[beaver watch]

If you don't have a ground you shouldn't be playing in the premier League.