Standard of refereeing - All time low?

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, lwh said:

Like I said, has nothing to do with results, we won against Montrose ans the refereee was terrible. I was wrong about the penalty, but the referees overall performance was extremely poor and I feel as though that should be called out, just as I am regularly on here for my Twitter posts

You've absolutely only made this thread because of the results. 

We've been piss poor during this league campaign, no refereeing decision has done us out of points.

Where was your outrage when Matthew Aitken spent the last 2 seasons being awarded freekicks before anyone was within 5 feet of him? 

Players con refs all the time, it's a big part of the modern game unfortunately but to try & spin the narrative that they're suddenly so much worse is pish.

[ScottishLoon]

Of course losing games and bad performances highlights your view on poor refereeing decisions it's only natural, and that's only because it can be so easy to get carried away in a good performance and scoring goals to not focus on the bad decisions in a match.

I'd like to hope me included that supporters could start to get better at noting bad decisions no matter which way they go and not just revert to the general idea of "if you win stop complaining about it and celebrate" or "if you lose stop blaming the officials"

There needs to be middle ground and nuanced discussion from every clubs supporters. We'll continue in this loop where the powers at be will just keep on doing the same things and also brushing most of criticism down to supporters being overly partisan.

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by ScottishLoon

[lwh]

2 hours ago, TheClosingArguement said:

You've absolutely only made this thread because of the results. 

We've been piss poor during this league campaign, no refereeing decision has done us out of points.

Where was your outrage when Matthew Aitken spent the last 2 seasons being awarded freekicks before anyone was within 5 feet of him? 

Players con refs all the time, it's a big part of the modern game unfortunately but to try & spin the narrative that they're suddenly so much worse is pish.

No refereeing decision has done us out of a result and yet I’ve only made this thread because of results. If your going to contradict yourself, atleast don’t do it within two sentences of each other

[lwh]

1 hour ago, ScottishLoon said:

Of course losing games and bad performances highlights your view on poor refereeing decisions it's only natural, and that's only because it can be so easy to get carried away in a good performance and scoring goals to not focus on the bad decisions in a match.

I'd like to hope me included that supporters could start to get better at noting bad decisions no matter which way they go and not just revert to the general idea of "if you win stop complaining about it and celebrate" or "if you lose stop blaming the officials"

There needs to be middle ground and nuanced discussion from every clubs supporters. We'll continue in this loop where the powers at be will just keep on doing the same things and also brushing most of criticism down to supporters being overly partisan.

 

This is exactly what I’m trying to do with this thread. I feel as though officials have been consistently poor this season and believe meaningful discussion can take place outside the partisan feeling of “this decision went against us.” The overall standard has been really poor I feel

 

edit* 

 

i do understand meaningful discussion Is beyond the capabilities of some on this website 

Edited September 17, 2023 by lwh

[RateofKnots]

Refereeing is at the highest standard it has ever been.

[pleslie99]

8 hours ago, lwh said:

Already work in football doing other things so afraid I can’t. I’m highlighting a problem that needs addressing, if there’s a shortage then VAR can’t exist 

 

8 hours ago, lwh said:

Oh and I am a qualified referee 

If the above 2 posts are indeed true then the fact you’ve made this thread in the 1st place is a disgrace. 
just because you work in football doesn’t mean you can’t referee.

if your a club official then your club should be handed you your jotters as pish like this will just get them into bother.

if you are indeed a referee then you should be ashamed of yourself. You should know how hard a job it is and that the refs have 1 look at it. Refs should be sticking together not slating each other, they get it hard enough from folk that don’t know the laws. How would you feel if you were reffing a game on a Saturday on a public park, and a fellow ref decided to have a go saying how terrible you were? 

the king and short of it is you are bitter your team lost and looking for someone to blame. Dry your eyes and get over it.

[Balmoor Boy]

14 hours ago, Jordo1872 said:

Football fan blames referee following defeat.

A tale as old as time.

Not this time I'm afraid, my team won today and I still blame the referee for spoiling the game. He was vastly out of his depth and it was evident from the start that there would be lots of bookings and contentious penalties awarded.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Balmoor Boy

[Guest]

5 hours ago, lwh said:

No refereeing decision has done us out of a result and yet I’ve only made this thread because of results. If your going to contradict yourself, atleast don’t do it within two sentences of each other

Pointing out that you're an embarrassment to the club isn't a contradiction.

[The Moonster]

10 hours ago, pleslie99 said:

Why don’t u go ahead and take a refs course with your local association. Show everyone how it’s done? There’s a huge shortage at all grass roots levels so another one would be a big help. 
Then you can come in and criticise when u actually understand the laws that the refs are trying to enforce! 

I understand you are involved and this sort of stuff gets your back up but it's nonsense to say folk can't criticise unless they've reffed a game in some scheme in Glasgow with a gang of neds threatening to chib you. 

The standard of refereeing has absolutely dropped. We've had a number of guys having their first national league matches and the inexperience shows. That's not to say they won't get better with time but there have been a number of consistency issues across our games this season. If refs are being forced to apply the laws in a certain way then there should be a consistency but there just isn't. 

The shortage brought on by VAR doesn't justify this either. If our association has implemented VAR without having the required quality to plug the gaps then that is absolutely a fair criticism to make. Shouting "ah well none of YOU are offering your hand" is reductive nonsense. 

[pleslie99]

Just now, The Moonster said:

I understand you are involved and this sort of stuff gets your back up but it's nonsense to say folk can't criticise unless they've reffed a game in some scheme in Glasgow with a gang of neds threatening to chib you. 

The standard of refereeing has absolutely dropped. We've had a number of guys having their first national league matches and the inexperience shows. That's not to say they won't get better with time but there have been a number of consistency issues across our games this season. If refs are being forced to apply the laws in a certain way then there should be a consistency but there just isn't. 

The shortage brought on by VAR doesn't justify this either. If our association has implemented VAR without having the required quality to plug the gaps then that is absolutely a fair criticism to make. Shouting "ah well none of YOU are offering your hand" is reductive nonsense. 

I get that argument, and by all means criticise, but unless you understand the intricacies of the laws then you are sometimes just making yourself look a fool! all too often folk are jumping on to criticise the ref when in fact they don’t understand the laws of the game themselves. Yea guys need to start somewhere, and the guys refereeing at our level have all done time at youth/amateur and junior(WOS/EoS) level, been observed, had feedback, and not been promoted until the guys watching them feel they are ready. 
Folk just jump on shouting because it’s what ‘they think’ the laws are rather than what they know. Iv not seen the game the original poster is referring too but I’d be delighted to have a look at any highlights and would happily retract my defence of the ref if he’s wrong. 

[The Moonster]

Just now, pleslie99 said:

I get that argument, and by all means criticise, but unless you understand the intricacies of the laws then you are sometimes just making yourself look a fool! all too often folk are jumping on to criticise the ref when in fact they don’t understand the laws of the game themselves. Yea guys need to start somewhere, and the guys refereeing at our level have all done time at youth/amateur and junior(WOS/EoS) level, been observed, had feedback, and not been promoted until the guys watching them feel they are ready. 
Folk just jump on shouting because it’s what ‘they think’ the laws are rather than what they know. Iv not seen the game the original poster is referring too but I’d be delighted to have a look at any highlights and would happily retract my defence of the ref if he’s wrong. 

I think the criticism is that they aren't ready, so if they are being promoted by certain criteria then perhaps that criteria needs reviewed. Generally yes you might be right that folk don't understand what the rules are but even in the very small sample of games I've watched this year there have been massive jumps in application of the rules, going from a strict no tolerance to time wasting one week and back to the relaxed approach of just speeding folk up with your whistle the next. You can say it's what they're being told but what they're being told shouldn't alter from one week to the next. 

[As Easterly as it gets!]

15 hours ago, peternapper said:

Spoke to a Bonnyrigg supporter after the game and we both agreed todays ref was terrible for both teams, he was convinced that he was going to nook their player for fiving but they got the pen & think Rory went looking for ours so cancelled each other out. The actual goal we scored was a beut & a worthy winner.

Rory wasnt 'looking' for a pen. The defender clipped his foot as he turned . The defender immediately put his head in his hands as he knew it was an infringement. 

No complaint from any Rose player.

As for the ref, he was very poor. The usual inconsistency on show.

But, to expect anything better in the 4th tier........... ain't gonna happen.

[pleslie99]

11 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

I think the criticism is that they aren't ready, so if they are being promoted by certain criteria then perhaps that criteria needs reviewed. Generally yes you might be right that folk don't understand what the rules are but even in the very small sample of games I've watched this year there have been massive jumps in application of the rules, going from a strict no tolerance to time wasting one week and back to the relaxed approach of just speeding folk up with your whistle the next. You can say it's what they're being told but what they're being told shouldn't alter from one week to the next. 

I’m not saying there isn’t guys put through when not ready, there is a small minority but id still argue the issues lie with fans not understanding the laws (and ifab for making them so complicated - see handball!)

I understand your point about different applications of the same laws, and as frustrating this may seem to fans, it’s not a shock in game for players. Some refs have different tolerance levels for certain ‘subjective’ laws. Take dissent, some refs won’t stand for any, some will allow a level of frustration to come out before dishing cards out. Same with delaying the restart of play, some refs will give warnings, some will think players are taking the piss. The ref will cover his expectations with both sets of players and managers pre-match, so how he referees won’t be a shock. Take Carlo’s red for us earlier in season, it was stupid and he should’ve known the ref wasn’t going to stand for it, even if others might let it slide! 
also if a ref is being observed he will ref much closer to the letter of the law than applying some ‘common sense’ as that gets marked down. Again tho, players and coaches know this is going to be happening, fans don’t! 

 

[Spyro]

26 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

I think the criticism is that they aren't ready, so if they are being promoted by certain criteria then perhaps that criteria needs reviewed. Generally yes you might be right that folk don't understand what the rules are but even in the very small sample of games I've watched this year there have been massive jumps in application of the rules, going from a strict no tolerance to time wasting one week and back to the relaxed approach of just speeding folk up with your whistle the next. You can say it's what they're being told but what they're being told shouldn't alter from one week to the next. 

While I agree there is something fundamentally wrong with the way the SFA are training refs, the Maltese and other refs who subbed when our refs went on strike showed that, the argument that "they aren't ready" only points one way... 

So who is ready and do we just postpone League 2 or League 1 games because there aren't enough tier 4 standard refs in the country? 

The amateurs will be delighted as it will be more refs available lower down and it won't be them having 3 weeks off because the league can't find them a ref

[Pedro Cabeza]

Everybody has to start somewhere and won't get everything 100% correct from the outset.
I don't mind if they make mistakes as long as they are impartial. Equally shit for both teams.
It just seems that there is an influx of new referees in league 2 this season coming up from
the Lowland League and it will take them time to adjust to the faster pace of the game and 
dare I say it more streetwise players.Being a referee can be a thankless task with the abuse
that gets hurled at them but where would our game be without them? 
The referee at our game yesterday went out of his way to introduce himself to both managers
and although his performance left a bit to be desired, he was at least trying his hardest and can 
only improve.Inexperienced linesmen came into the same category when they should be helping the ref.
Even senior refs don't get it right and we have been on the receiving end of some horrendous
decisions in cup ties, Dundee springs to mind, and we even had the ref swearing at our players
in a Viaplay cup tie at Dundee United.
The introduction of VAR was supposed to help with contentious decisions but that's still not perfect
as we've seen recently.
And what would a Saturday be like if after losing, we didn't have someone to blame for our failings?

[David W]

Referees never bother me really, particularly newer ones. What does irritate is the ones that have been around for a while and are poor (Kirkland, Stuart, Grainger as examples). There's a huge body of evidence to suggest they'll never be up to it.

[Dev]

11 hours ago, TheClosingArguement said:

You've absolutely only made this thread because of the results. 

We've been piss poor during this league campaign, no refereeing decision has done us out of points.

Where was your outrage when Matthew Aitken spent the last 2 seasons being awarded freekicks before anyone was within 5 feet of him? 

Players con refs all the time, it's a big part of the modern game unfortunately but to try & spin the narrative that they're suddenly so much worse is pish.

"Players con refs all the time, it's a big part of the modern game unfortunately"

Nail hit right on head !

The players are not dealt with for this behaviour by their clubs, the Leagues or the SFA. That is what is at the heart of the problem.

Where games are recorded the recordings should be reviewed and players who conned the refs can be identified and their clubs should be fined and or deducted points. This means resources need to be directed at this issue or else the numbers of refs will continue to decrease and that means the standard of refereeing will decline.

It's a vicious circle. There needs to be leadership shown at the top of the SFA about this.

[The Moonster]

43 minutes ago, Spyro said:

While I agree there is something fundamentally wrong with the way the SFA are training refs, the Maltese and other refs who subbed when our refs went on strike showed that, the argument that "they aren't ready" only points one way... 

So who is ready and do we just postpone League 2 or League 1 games because there aren't enough tier 4 standard refs in the country? 

The amateurs will be delighted as it will be more refs available lower down and it won't be them having 3 weeks off because the league can't find them a ref

Maltese refs are worse than ours so shut up and get on with it? A terrible argument. 

No we don't postpone Leagues 1 and 2, but we perhaps rethink how a video ref system is implemented without taking all the qualified refs away from lower levels. In trying to discuss this stuff can we avoid ridiculous extremes? Nobody is saying sack all the refs and start again.

1 hour ago, pleslie99 said:

I’m not saying there isn’t guys put through when not ready, there is a small minority but id still argue the issues lie with fans not understanding the laws (and ifab for making them so complicated - see handball!)

I understand your point about different applications of the same laws, and as frustrating this may seem to fans, it’s not a shock in game for players. Some refs have different tolerance levels for certain ‘subjective’ laws. Take dissent, some refs won’t stand for any, some will allow a level of frustration to come out before dishing cards out. Same with delaying the restart of play, some refs will give warnings, some will think players are taking the piss. The ref will cover his expectations with both sets of players and managers pre-match, so how he referees won’t be a shock. Take Carlo’s red for us earlier in season, it was stupid and he should’ve known the ref wasn’t going to stand for it, even if others might let it slide! 
also if a ref is being observed he will ref much closer to the letter of the law than applying some ‘common sense’ as that gets marked down. Again tho, players and coaches know this is going to be happening, fans don’t! 

 

Did we not have that same ref only a couple of weeks later and his tolerance for time wasting was a bit more relaxed? Perhaps I'm misremembering but I'm sure @Jan Vojáček was watching this like a hawk. It's not just consistency from referee to referee, it's consistency of decisions from the same ref, sometimes in the same game. 

[lwh]

1 hour ago, pleslie99 said:

 

also if a ref is being observed he will ref much closer to the letter of the law than applying some ‘common sense’ as that gets marked down. Again tho, players and coaches know this is going to be happening, fans don’t! 

 

Surely though, this is part of the problem, a flaw in the SFA’s system Common sense, “game management” I think the refs call it, should be rewarded not marked down 

[pleslie99]

2 hours ago, lwh said:

Surely though, this is part of the problem, a flaw in the SFA’s system Common sense, “game management” I think the refs call it, should be rewarded not marked down 

If they are being observed and told to referee a certain way due to feedback from a previous observer, then they are going to do that!

you haven’t mentioned any specific decision you think the ref got wrong in your game? Can you enlighten us?