Calm Down

[Leith Green]

10 minutes ago, dirty dingus said:

Just watched a good video showing the Germans tactics and how Tony Kroos controlled the game.  Hopefully the Swiss haven't watched it.

 

Thought that was pretty good assessment.

Kroos was pivotal - and immense.

[Pocketman]

2 hours ago, 2426255 said:

The difficult part is when you try to open up and control the game with the ball and begin taking risks at the back. Our defence is a weakness in our game which is no doubt why we decided our best chance against Germany was defend deep and counter. Our possession stats in the friendlies against England (40%), France (48%) and the Netherlands (47%) were decent. There is a pattern. In the competitive games we defended deep and countered (Spain, Norway, Spain, Germany). In the friendlies we tried to develop our game with the ball, go toe to toe (England, France, Netherlands).

It's a big leap we're trying to make. Probably comparable to Aberdeen, Hibs or Hearts trying to play on an Old Firm level or maybe a better example would be one of the Old Firm trying to compete at Champions League level. I understand you're disappointed we haven't as yet reached our goal, but that's the bigger picture. It's not a regression to aim high and not achieve - can't get on board with that point of view.

It's regression if we inexplicably throw in a performance for a key game like we did against Germany or we did against the Ukraine in the WC qualifier and just put it down to an off day or not having as good as players as the opposition in all key positions. The manager has failed to offer a credible explanation for that or the spate of very poor results and indifferent performances we have had for over 6 months. 

I am not saying a different manager could do better. I am saying that after an upward trajectory we have regressed and the manager doesn't seem to know why. You are offering explanations to account for that but for me, saying we were poor against England and France (we were better against Netherlands) because we went toe to toe doesn't add up and is not something the manager is putting forward either. In fact he is not putting anything forward and we need to stop saying performances like that against Germany are down to unrealistic expectations from fans or because simply Germany are on a different level. That would mean Germany would pump any mid-ranking team if they play well and that is not the case. We were awful (not being able to string passes together or old on to the ball - that basic Vogts/McLeish mark II type of performance) and the question as to why remains unanswered. If we play well against Switzerland, regardless of the result, the Germany performance still needs to be addressed. 

[Dons_1988]

18 minutes ago, Pocketman said:

It's regression if we inexplicably throw in a performance for a key game like we did against Germany or we did against the Ukraine in the WC qualifier and just put it down to an off day or not having as good as players as the opposition in all key positions. The manager has failed to offer a credible explanation for that or the spate of very poor results and indifferent performances we have had for over 6 months. 

I am not saying a different manager could do better. I am saying that after an upward trajectory we have regressed and the manager doesn't seem to know why. You are offering explanations to account for that but for me, saying we were poor against England and France (we were better against Netherlands) because we went toe to toe doesn't add up and is not something the manager is putting forward either. In fact he is not putting anything forward and we need to stop saying performances like that against Germany are down to unrealistic expectations from fans or because simply Germany are on a different level. That would mean Germany would pump any mid-ranking team if they play well and that is not the case. We were awful (not being able to string passes together or old on to the ball - that basic Vogts/McLeish mark II type of performance) and the question as to why remains unanswered. If we play well against Switzerland, regardless of the result, the Germany performance still needs to be addressed. 

No offence but Steve clarke doesn’t owe you an explanation as to what happened. 

[Pocketman]

3 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

No offence but Steve clarke doesn’t owe you an explanation as to what happened. 

Thanks - I was indeed feeling quite offended by Clarke not yet calling me up personally to chat through Friday's debacle. If Clarke knows why we were rotten, can address it but doesn't want to disclose it, then batter on as far as I am concerned. If he has no clue and therefore that's why he nor the players can offer a credible explanation then that is hugely worrying. I suspect it is the latter. 

[Dons_1988]

6 minutes ago, Pocketman said:

Thanks - I was indeed feeling quite offended by Clarke not yet calling me up personally to chat through Friday's debacle. If Clarke knows why we were rotten, can address it but doesn't want to disclose it, then batter on as far as I am concerned. If he has no clue and therefore that's why he nor the players can offer a credible explanation then that is hugely worrying. I suspect it is the latter. 

So the point is…if he knows what he’s doing then great, if he doesn’t then bad. Good stuff, I can’t disagree. 

[2426255]

47 minutes ago, Pocketman said:

It's regression if we inexplicably throw in a performance for a key game like we did against Germany or we did against the Ukraine in the WC qualifier and just put it down to an off day or not having as good as players as the opposition in all key positions. The manager has failed to offer a credible explanation for that or the spate of very poor results and indifferent performances we have had for over 6 months. 

I am not saying a different manager could do better. I am saying that after an upward trajectory we have regressed and the manager doesn't seem to know why. You are offering explanations to account for that but for me, saying we were poor against England and France (we were better against Netherlands) because we went toe to toe doesn't add up and is not something the manager is putting forward either. In fact he is not putting anything forward and we need to stop saying performances like that against Germany are down to unrealistic expectations from fans or because simply Germany are on a different level. That would mean Germany would pump any mid-ranking team if they play well and that is not the case. We were awful (not being able to string passes together or old on to the ball - that basic Vogts/McLeish mark II type of performance) and the question as to why remains unanswered. If we play well against Switzerland, regardless of the result, the Germany performance still needs to be addressed. 

We are trying to break through a glass ceiling. If you are expecting a straight line progression then you're going to see it as regression when we take a step back or put in a bad performance. It's two steps forward, one step back. The overall trend is in the right direction as in qualifying for major tournaments and getting into League A of the Nations league.

He has offered an explanation (for Ukraine), you don't accept it which is fine and an explanation for the friendlies: We are trying to improve as a team on the ball and that's how you begin to compete with top tier nations. It's obvious he doesn't believe the team are at the required level to go toe to toe yet in a competitive game against top tier nations given the game plan against both Spain and Germany.

I don't think we'll agree on this, so I'll leave it at that and you're welcome to the last word on it.

[Jacksgranda]

[Monkey Tennis]

53 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

No offence but Steve clarke doesn’t owe you an explanation as to what happened. 

I genuinely think he kinda does a bit.

[Dons_1988]

6 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I genuinely think he kinda does a bit.

What are you expecting beyond ‘we let ourselves down and Germany were excellent’?

He isn’t going to dig out individuals, we know that. Everyone knows we were awful, Steve clarke knows that. You know that. 

His job is about Wednesday night now, the Germany game is gone. 

[Monkey Tennis]

6 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

What are you expecting beyond ‘we let ourselves down and Germany were excellent’?

He isn’t going to dig out individuals, we know that. Everyone knows we were awful, Steve clarke knows that. You know that. 

I'm not expecting much more to be honest.

The defensive tetchiness of the press conference was maybe inevitable, but a bit of looking back on where we went wrong wouldn't hurt.

Nobody's demanding that he give loads away, or publicly slaughter anyone.  To deliver a performance like that on such an occasion probably does require  some humility and reflection though. I thought McGregor got the tone right yesterday.

Edited June 16 by Monkey Tennis

[BFTD]

19 hours ago, GordonS said:

No, I posted tables from the qualification before that tournament, and two from after. Look again.

You're effectively using one result - the defeat to Costa Rica - to argue that a team with a very good record over the course of 6 years wasn't very good. They lost by a goal to Brazil and to us. Those don't take away from the reality of how good that side was.

I have never heard anyone try to argue that wasn't a very strong Sweden side before, so points for novelty. 

I take it you've realised by now that the only acceptable answer was "regardless of evidence, they were a garbage side because Scotland beat them".

[Dons_1988]

39 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I'm not expecting much more to be honest.

The defensive tetchiness of the press conference was maybe inevitable, but a bit of looking back on where we went wrong wouldn't hurt.

Nobody's demanding that he give loads away, or publicly slaughter anyone.  To deliver a performance like that on such an occasion probably does demand some humility and reflection though. I thought McGregor got the tone right yesterday.

I agree he was too tetchy in his presser but have sympathy with how he would’ve been feeling. 

Beyond that I really don’t care. He says about the same amount after beating Spain. 

[BFTD]

The press are a bunch of c***s, so I'm quite happy to see managers refusing to give them stories.

My only problem with Strachan was that, in between being grouchy and talking to them like they were morons, he'd come out with stuff about generic inferiority and wanting relegation removed for big teams.

[Dons_1988]

23 minutes ago, BFTD said:

The press are a bunch of c***s, so I'm quite happy to see managers refusing to give them stories.

My only problem with Strachan was that, in between being grouchy and talking to them like they were morons, he'd come out with stuff about generic inferiority and wanting relegation removed for big teams.

It was funny how angry Kenny macintyre got at clarke’s press conference. Media guys get so indignant when managers, players don’t play their wee game and pretend these interviews really mean much. 

[Fratelli]

I’ve very little time for the perspective/remember x World Cup 40 years ago/calm down/jaded ‘stop caring so much’ patter this time around for whatever reason. Friday night was one of the biggest occasions in our footballing history and we humiliated ourselves. Clarke and the players deserve heavy criticism for that. We were likely always going to lose anyway but we looked like San Marino out there. It’s fine to be fucked off at that. 

Also, if we turn it around and blitz through Switzerland and Hungary, the folk who were raging at the Germany game still won’t be wrong.

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, BFTD said:

I take it you've realised by now that the only acceptable answer was "regardless of evidence, they were a garbage side because Scotland beat them".

I didn't bother reading anything after my reply because I know how it goes.

[GordonS]

52 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

It was funny how angry Kenny macintyre got at clarke’s press conference. Media guys get so indignant when managers, players don’t play their wee game and pretend these interviews really mean much. 

The media think the represent the fans and they're fearlessly seeking answers on our behalf. But I don't think many of us want answers right now, we just want them to come out fighting on Wednesday, and getting cross-examined by over-entitled know-nothings like Tom English doesn't help. Explanations for Friday can wait until after we're out.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

17 hours ago, DA Baracus said:

Because we showed nothing last night.

Obviously we have a chance in the next two games, but if last night's team turns up to either game we're getting nothing.

I'm coming a bit late to this thread but Friday night felt a lot more like a chastening capitulation than a heavy defeat, and a game in which Scotland's lack of quality was ruthlessly exposed.

It's a bit of a stretch to think that there will be a sea change over these coming games, welcome as that would be, so maybe we should settle for a more committed and organised performance against what will be two difficult opponents, and see what results.

Edited June 16 by O'Kelly Isley III

[Dons_1988]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

The media think the represent the fans and they're fearlessly seeking answers on our behalf. But I don't think many of us want answers right now, we just want them to come out fighting on Wednesday, and getting cross-examined by over-entitled know-nothings like Tom English doesn't help. Explanations for Friday can wait until after we're out.

I think some of them like to convince themselves they’re on a crusade on our behalf, but deep down they know they just want content to increase clicks, whether it be good, bad or messy. 

[2426255]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

The media think the represent the fans and they're fearlessly seeking answers on our behalf. But I don't think many of us want answers right now, we just want them to come out fighting on Wednesday, and getting cross-examined by over-entitled know-nothings like Tom English doesn't help. Explanations for Friday can wait until after we're out.

Good contribution. Couldn't agree more. It's about moving on from Friday and focusing on Wednesday. A post mortem can wait. I hope for the players it's settled. The media are just an obstacle at the moment.

Edited June 16 by 2426255