Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 v 🇭🇺 Hungary

[FalkirkBairn2021]

Anthony Lolston

'It's going to be something we can look back on and be proud of'

Get so far to f**k with this shit.

[54_and_counting]

14 minutes ago, FalkirkBairn2021 said:

Exactly this. How can anyone be saying Hungary played this masterfully. 

In a must win game they were utter shite against a side that couldn't score in a barrel of fannies. 

They completely fucked it too and got incredibly lucky. 

They didnt play it masterfully but they set out to complete negate scotlands only attacking option which is the counter attack, hungary knew they'd get chances eventually as the scottish backline is poor, they just knew they couldn't get caught on the break

Whereas clarke seen his gameplan no happen, and did f**k all till it was too late

[Dons_1988]

I’ve not seen anyone claim Hungary were good tbh. 

They are a poor team but were tactically astute enough to completely nullify anything we could muster. It’s about as damning an indictment of Steve clarke’s role in this that you can find to be honest. 

[Bairnardo]

Seen some of what I'm about to say already and assume anything else has already been said, but firstly.... Just feel a bit numb and bit sad over that. First proper tournament for the fans in years, (decades in our own case) and it all just fell flat.

Football wise, I said lastnight I didn't hate the first half. I wanted to be going into the second half with everything there to take, but then.... As someone said a few pages back, it's absolutely baffling how we failed to find the middle ground between our kinda cagey start, and just incoherent bodies up top at the end. 

There was absolutely tweaks and personnel changes in there that could have got the result for us. Had we kept the system the same, and fired Armstrong and Christie in for McGregor and Gilmour, and maybe Shankland on for Adams at that point, we'd have made a better go of it. The changes got made, but they just turned into a rabble and no one really got the chance to exert any influence. 

There's loads more to unpick. But it's primarily just numbness at such a whimpering exit from a tournament we should have done better at. 

[Crùbag]

48 minutes ago, FalkirkBairn2021 said:

There was a standing ovation in my boozer when Shankland came on which made me wonder 'Have any of you actually seen him play?'

 

I have - for Dun Utd, Hearts and Scotland. He's scored against the millionaires of Sevco and Celtic, in Europe and for Scotland. He's developed his game from being a lazy poacher to a captain at Hearts who gets back to defend, holds the ball, pulls defenders all over the place and motivates his teammates. And, he scores.

But aye, leave him on the bench...

Edited June 24 by Crùbag

[lanky_ffc]

1 hour ago, Dons_1988 said:

Pat nevins column on bbc sport website is quite dispiriting. 

I don’t understand how people can watch last nights game and suggest we couldn’t do any better. 

Moyes was saying last night that there’s no shame in it. I’m sorry, but within the relevant importance of football, there is shame in putting in such a performance when faced with such an opportunity. We need to be really honest with ourselves. 

‘there’s no shame in it’ is about as constructive as rants about kids and PlayStations or moaning about the tartan army enjoying themselves. 

Tempted to give Moyes the benefit of the doubt and assume he's being polite about a group of players he could be managing in the near future.

[54_and_counting]

39 minutes ago, virginton said:

Which only an absolute moron would accept, given that Hungary created few chances in the game (more than Scotland) and were 45 seconds or so away from their own humiliating exit from the tournament. 

Rossi did not plan to win the game in the 100th minute. Both managers got their game plan wrong and one got bailed out. If the referee gave the penalty (not for me) then that would have bailed Clarke out instead. 

He clearly planned to win the game at some point

Can the same be said about Clarke given in a straight shoot out game against a team who conceded 5 goals in 2 games, he started a 541

[54_and_counting]

5 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Seen some of what I'm about to say already and assume anything else has already been said, but firstly.... Just feel a bit numb and bit sad over that. First proper tournament for the fans in years, (decades in our own case) and it all just fell flat.

Football wise, I said lastnight I didn't hate the first half. I wanted to be going into the second half with everything there to take, but then.... As someone said a few pages back, it's absolutely baffling how we failed to find the middle ground between our kinda cagey start, and just incoherent bodies up top at the end. 

There was absolutely tweaks and personnel changes in there that could have got the result for us. Had we kept the system the same, and fired Armstrong and Christie in for McGregor and Gilmour, and maybe Shankland on for Adams at that point, we'd have made a better go of it. The changes got made, but they just turned into a rabble and no one really got the chance to exert any influence. 

There's loads more to unpick. But it's primarily just numbness at such a whimpering exit from a tournament we should have done better at. 

See when the more attacking players are brought on (especially attacking mids) thats when gilmour would be at his best, taking the ball off the defence and finding a forward pass

Absolute riot of a setup to play gilmour when you are at your most defensive and all he can do is pass backwards or sideways cause theres f**k all in front of him

[Bairnardo]

Just now, 54_and_counting said:

See when the more attacking players are brought on (especially attacking mids) thats when gilmour would be at his best, taking the ball off the defence and finding a forward pass

Absolute riot of a setup to play gilmour when you are at your most defensive and all he can do is pass backwards or sideways cause theres f**k all in front of him

A 541 doesn't need to be inherently defensive. It's about what you instruct guys to do. Like I say, I was OK with cautious first half, but Clarke failed us in the second. He could have kept the shape identical and still got after them. 

[54_and_counting]

2 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

A 541 doesn't need to be inherently defensive. It's about what you instruct guys to do. Like I say, I was OK with cautious first half, but Clarke failed us in the second. He could have kept the shape identical and still got after them. 

A 541 with 3 centres halves and ralston, along with mcgregor mcginn and gilmour is far too defensive for a game that you win you're through, no ifs or buts, thats 7 of your outfield 10 who prefer to stay goalside and work that way (could argue mctominay does that as well but he's still likely to break forward as much) 

Fair nuff starting like that, but the minute hungary set up the barbed wire and moats on their 18yard line, Clarke could easily have put Christie on for ralston (give more attacking on the right side) or a centre half off and put a working runner up top as well so the guys playing the ball can hit something 

[Kadouken_]

4 hours ago, Jacksgranda said:

A Celtic fan going on about budgets! 

Great contribution. 

[forameus]

45 minutes ago, FalkirkBairn2021 said:

Exactly this. How can anyone be saying Hungary played this masterfully. 

In a must win game they were utter shite against a side that couldn't score in a barrel of fannies. 

They completely fucked it too and got incredibly lucky. 

It's an incredibly fine line between having your gameplan work and not.  I said it somewhere else, maybe in this thread, not sure, but they clearly set out from the start knowing that if they sat in, they would be very, very likely to nullify any threat we had.  It's a risk, but clearly an educated one because...well, look at us this tournament.  We could have nicked a goal, but so could they.  The higher percentage play would probably be to wait for us to come out.  They needed a win, of course they did, but realistically so did we.  They knew that at some point, we'd have to leave gaps, and they were comfortable enough in their own abilities to think that they could strike then.

I think if Varga doesn't get knocked out, Hungary score earlier.  They were definitely growing into it and putting us under more and more pressure, but they kind of fell out of it (understandably) when that happened.  They probably expected us to make a move a lot earlier too.  As the minutes ticked by, it starts to make their plan look shite, and had they not scored, you can easily argue it was.  But they were unlucky not to score earlier, and then they did.  They won the game having limited us to absolutely nothing.  High risk, and could end up being high reward if they sneak through.  I don't think they were ever in a position to beat us heavily, so they did the best they could.

We on the other hand, had no such clear plan.  We were just passengers in Hungary's plan, and couldn't shake ourselves free of that.  Had we got that penalty and scored it, we'd probably have won, and there's a far stronger argument for getting incredibly lucky than Hungary IMO.

[Kadouken_]

1 hour ago, Elixir said:

We would be better served if more of our squad played abroad in more technical leagues. The Premier League is the best marketed league in the world, but I'm unconvinced it will improve you technically if you're not already gifted in that respect - certainly as much as others anyway. Sure, players born on the continent move there, but many were already brought up learning to love the ball, rather than lump it. Coaches and managers in England, as in Scotland, are also largely dinosaurs in comparison to their continental counterparts.

Spain, Germany, France, holders Italy - all only have a few players in their entire squad who play in England. Portugal buck that trend a bit, admittedly, but again, players like Silva, Fernandes, Jota, Dias would have been raised to play football completely differently to players in Scotland. Technical ability is valued so much more.

Austria only have one player in their squad who plays in England, and it isn't even the Premier League. Similar can be said of nations that should inspire us long-term, like Croatia, and those at this tournament that have completely shown us up, at least performance wise, like Slovakia, Georgia and Albania.

In summary, the Premier League may be a fast-paced, blood and thunder league that is entertaining to watch, but I don't think it prepares you as well as leagues on the continent do for international football, particularly tournaments. It should be noted that England have also suffered from this over the years (decades). Bellingham is their best player and he will almost certainly play most of his career outside the EPL bubble, if not all of it.

I probably fell into the trap of overestimating our current potential based on how many of our strongest eleven when fit play in the Premier League - either for good sides or some of the bigger clubs. As has been covered, Clarke barely played Ferguson pre-injury, and young, promising guys like Doig and Max Johnston haven't even been in the squad yet. The latter would have been an improvement on Ralston, for example.

More players playing in Italy, Germany, Spain, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, etc, and a manager who can get the most out of the squad in front of him would certainly take us further than we are now. We need to encourage more players to be brave and embrace this - it will also improve you as a person as well as a player adapting to new cultures, hopefully learning the language of most of your teammates, ideally not binge drinking and scraning chippies, and so on.

Is there enough will there to be different, however?

Which is why even as a Celtic fan my hope is Daniel Kelly goes to Leverkusen instead of staying here or going to Spurs. 
 

If he stays here he won’t get a chance and will be loaned to the lower leagues playing Stone Age football for a few years before getting punted to a County or Killie. 

[saint in exile]

You wonder how things would have panned out with Ferguson,Hickey and Dykes were  all in the team.                          If Clarke had given Shankland more game time and played two up front for the Hungary game with Forrest as a RWB.

 

I guess it's pointless musing but supporting Scotland is always a bit what IF

[Barry Ferguson's Hat]

Well, there was a few hundred of us there in the end and we gave them absolute hell.

Gilmour in particular looked like he was about to cry and I was even able to look Ross McCrorie in the eyes and tell him to eat shit and die.

Bit of confusion re what airport it was,  but once we managed to hurriedly organise a few busses, everything worked out.

Successful morning/ afternoon all in.

[No_Problemo]

1 hour ago, Crùbag said:

 

I have - for Dun Utd, Hearts and Scotland. He's scored against the millionaires of Sevco and Celtic, in Europe and for Scotland. He's developed his game from being a lazy poacher to a captain at Hearts who gets back to defend, holds the ball, pulls defenders all over the place and motivates his teammates. And, he scores.

But aye, leave him on the bench...

Shankland has never been a lazy poacher, certainly not since he arrived at Ayr. 

[Need2Speak2Caesar]

Why play so passive and play 1 upfront (che adams) in a match we have to win. The Hungarians let us keep so much possession because they knew that we had hee haw upfront.

[LondonHMFC]

4 hours ago, Dunfermline Don said:

It’s hard to believe that this time last year we were reaching almost 1978 levels of optimism about this tournament, expecting to at the very least be able to get out of the group.

Being over here has been great, meeting other supporters from all over Europe. Visiting Munich, Koln & Stuttgart and being welcomed by the locals. Enjoying the beer and the food. Driving on the autobahn and having other Scots and Germans tooting and waving at the flags on our car.

The only downside had been the performance of the football team. 

 

Football in a nutshell really, the game more often than not tends to spoil a great day out. 

[Elixir]

1 hour ago, 54_and_counting said:

Bundesliga x4

2 bundesliga

EPL x2

League 1

Switzerland 

Hungary x2

Thats the leagues of the Hungarian starting line up last night, are we to believe that the 4 bundesliga boys mean that hungary are able to dominate chances as they did

The issue isnt with the players, its the fact clarkes managerial career is spent around simply trying not to lose, annoying opponents with defence minded tactics and then nicking something on the break

The hungary boss clearly looked at scotlands game against the swiss (pointless watching the german game , learn nothing) and seen how clarke loves a counter attack, so he negated that knowing full well scotland had f**k all other ideas

Last night was down to the ineptitude of the manager, but that doesn't negate the fact that we would likely be better served by more of our players playing on the continent and developing their game in more technical leagues - of course ideally for decent teams in Italy, Spain, Germany, etc. The majority of European football, including the European Championships, exists outside of the EPL bubble. The more players you have that are adapted to such styles of football will therefore surely only benefit the national team, short of us suddenly having an entire starting eleven and squad that play for the best clubs in England.

 

58 minutes ago, saint in exile said:

You wonder how things would have panned out with Ferguson,Hickey and Dykes were  all in the team. If Clarke had given Shankland more game time and played two up front for the Hungary game with Forrest as a RWB.

I guess it's pointless musing but supporting Scotland is always a bit what IF

Ferguson would have been warming the bench.

[saint in exile]

More than likely but how could you leave out the best midfielder in Italy haha.

Ferguson for Macgregor would surely have made a difference