What is the point of labour ?

[tamthebam]

2 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

I assume the people that spoil their ballot papers then don’t complain about the government that is elected.

There is the old anarchist slogan "It doesn't matter who you vote for, the Government always wins". 

 

[aDONisSheep]

22 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Voting is picking the least worst option.  If you do that then that’s all you can do, if you don’t participate then you’re part of the problem.

I understand your point of view, but if everyone turned up and spoiled their ballot, that would send a message that what politicians are offering isn't acceptable.  If you vote for 'least worst', then that doesn't tell anyone that you're unhappy with the options, it does the opposite, it tells whoever is 'least worst' that you think they're doing the right thing (which may well not be the case).

I'm a classic case in point.  I'm a Labour voter at heart, but I'm struggling with this labour party.  I desperately don't want the tories to win, but think that if I vote Labour, I'm actually giving them some form of approval (and I definately don't approve), their only attraction is that they may not be as bad as the Tories, does that really deserve my vote? 

Where do I vent my dissaproval if I feel that none of the parties represent my values any more?  I am currently swithering between, voting Labour (despite my deep reservations), Green (more aligned to my values, but not entirely) and spoiling my paper!  (current likelihood is 20%:45%:35%).  I am really struggling

[Granny Danger]

49 minutes ago, tamthebam said:

There is the old anarchist slogan "It doesn't matter who you vote for, the Government always wins". 

 

Which old anarchist said that ?

[AyrshireTon]

4 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

Which old anarchist said that ?

The Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

5 hours ago, aDONisSheep said:

I understand your point of view, but if everyone turned up and spoiled their ballot, that would send a message that what politicians are offering isn't acceptable.  If you vote for 'least worst', then that doesn't tell anyone that you're unhappy with the options, it does the opposite, it tells whoever is 'least worst' that you think they're doing the right thing (which may well not be the case).

I'm a classic case in point.  I'm a Labour voter at heart, but I'm struggling with this labour party.  I desperately don't want the tories to win, but think that if I vote Labour, I'm actually giving them some form of approval (and I definately don't approve), their only attraction is that they may not be as bad as the Tories, does that really deserve my vote? 

Where do I vent my dissaproval if I feel that none of the parties represent my values any more?  I am currently swithering between, voting Labour (despite my deep reservations), Green (more aligned to my values, but not entirely) and spoiling my paper!  (current likelihood is 20%:45%:35%).  I am really struggling

I feel your pain, and I've agonised over what to do.  I'm a long-lapsed Labour voter who vowed after the Iraq invasion never to vote for them again.  I see nothing, absolutely nothing to alter that view; they may not be as repellent as the Tories but by God that's a low bar indeed.  In recent elections I've voted SNP but they have long strained my belief.

So what to do ?  I think of my granddaughters and what awaits them.  Post-Brexit UK is a basket case with Westminster a disfunctional cesspit, but there are bigger issues, two in particular - climate change and AI.  The latter we are in the lap of the gods, but we can at least exert pressure on the former, so I may well consider voting Green by way of a protest vote.  But I will vote.

[welshbairn]

7 hours ago, aDONisSheep said:

It's funny, I assume the opposite.  People that have bothered to turn up and spoil their paper are stating that they don't consent to any of the above.  It's people that can't be ersed to turn up that acquiesce (IMHO).

 

They could have a write in option instead of none of the above, so you could pick someone who's not standing, but you'd likely get more votes for Donald Trump or Tommy Robinson than anyone else. Spoiling your vote has multiple possible messages, you can't control the pencil or understand what you're meant to do, you're against the whole concept of democracy or just the particular system being used for canvassing preferences, you don't like any of the people or parties standing but can't be arsed standing yourself or joining with like minded people to find someone willing who represents your views. I don't get how that's better than the least worst option, even if it's an independent who has no chance but seems sound. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by welshbairn

[sophia]

8 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

Voting is picking the least worst option.  If you do that then that’s all you can do, if you don’t participate then you’re part of the problem.

Vote leave to agree with £350m for the NHS and racists 

[Freedom Farter]

19 hours ago, aDONisSheep said:

Sadiq Khan showing more backbone than the entire Shadow Cabinet.

 

Stephen Pollard isn't impressed:

 

 

Who Stephen Pollard is:

[Fullerene]

20 hours ago, aDONisSheep said:

It's funny, I assume the opposite.  People that have bothered to turn up and spoil their paper are stating that they don't consent to any of the above.  It's people that can't be ersed to turn up that acquiesce (IMHO).

Spoilt ballots are sidelined by volunteers at the count who have no interest in the result.  Maybe some get reviewed to see if they might be okay but not many.

Nobody knows if it is some sort of protest or simply incompetence with basic instructions and nobody really cares.

I feel sorry for those who vote early, put an X in the correct box but then sign it as they always do.  Their vote has never counted.

[BMG Spider]

9 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

Stephen Pollard isn't impressed:

 

 

Who Stephen Pollard is:

Even if I hadn't read the headline comment about Sadiq Khan, reading that he writes for the Daily Express would be enough for me to think he's a complete dick, but jeez, reading those views - every line leaves you thinking he's more and more of a complete right wing cnut; heart posted missing

[aDONisSheep]

9 hours ago, Fullerene said:

Spoilt ballots are sidelined by volunteers at the count who have no interest in the result.  Maybe some get reviewed to see if they might be okay but not many.

Nobody knows if it is some sort of protest or simply incompetence with basic instructions and nobody really cares.

I feel sorry for those who vote early, put an X in the correct box but then sign it as they always do.  Their vote has never counted.

They both count and analyse spoilt votes, to make sure that they are indeed invalid. (This happens at all levels from Parish Council to General Elections). 

This is Beaconsfield’s by-election:

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by aDONisSheep

[Miguel Sanchez]

Is there anything more tedious on P&B nowadays than Granny Danger - the brexit supporting, retirement emigrating Granny Danger - constantly telling people in Scotland how they should vote? It warms my heart seeing people quote him and telling him he voted leave.

[GNU_Linux]

Never mind spoiled votes has there ever been a soiled vote?

[carpetmonster]

37 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

Never mind spoiled votes has there ever been a soiled vote?

I once declared my intention to wipe my arse with a BNP flyer that came thru the door - they stood some rodent in my constituency in 2010ish - but the wife binned it before I got the chance. 

[Mark Connolly]

1 hour ago, GNU_Linux said:

Never mind spoiled votes has there ever been a soiled vote?

Does 55% shitting it in the 2014 referendum count?

[Fullerene]

4 hours ago, aDONisSheep said:

They both count and analyse spoilt votes, to make sure that they are indeed invalid. (This happens at all levels from Parish Council to General Elections). 

This is Beaconsfield’s by-election:

 

Thanks for the example.  I am not a Beaconsfield expert.  54 people spoilt their ballot because they were angry with Candidate A, Candidate B, the Council, Western Democracy, Taylor Swift,  the Corealis Effect, Continental Drift, Climate Change or simply because they are stupid.

Will any candidate mend their ways as a result of those 54 votes?

I suspect not.

[aDONisSheep]

On 28/10/2023 at 22:47, Fullerene said:

Thanks for the example.  I am not a Beaconsfield expert.  54 people spoilt their ballot because they were angry with Candidate A, Candidate B, the Council, Western Democracy, Taylor Swift,  the Corealis Effect, Continental Drift, Climate Change or simply because they are stupid.

Will any candidate mend their ways as a result of those 54 votes?

I suspect not.

I'm not claiming it provides a definitive or even coherent argument, all I'm arguing is that spoiling your ballot, is a more positive form of action, than simply not bothering to turn up.  If (an immaterial) 54 spoilt papers turned into a more material, 500 or 5,000 spoilt papers, then it might prompt more questions than if those same 500/5,000 voters stayed at home. 

My example of Beaconsfield wasn't to demonstrate the power of spoiling ballots, but to counter the suggestion that they (spoiled ballots) were simply put to the side and ingnored.  I was merely pointing out, that throughout our election cycles (right down to local and parish elections,) spoilt ballots are recorded and not simply ignored/put in the bin. 

Yours

aDONis

Edited October 30, 2023 by aDONisSheep

[Granny Danger]

Corbyn ally and Labour MP has whip removed.  I’m shocked by this!

[GTG_03]

Kier Starmer giving a speech just now about Israel -palestine. Calling for unity, I just don't believe anything he says. Gives me used car salesman vibes.

Reminded me a bit of when Ali G was at the UN meeting 'Why can't we all just get along ?' 

The guy is a charlatan.

[Lurkst]

58 minutes ago, GTG_03 said:

Kier Starmer giving a speech just now about Israel -palestine. Calling for unity, I just don't believe anything he says. Gives me used car salesman vibes.

Didn't hold Tony Blair back.