Alex Salmond deid.

[itzdrk]

1 hour ago, bennett said:

Like him or dislike him, you can't deny that he was the best Scotland politician of his era.

Agree. 

[Cardle is Magic]

Beyond strange to hear a man who cozied up with everyone down at Westminster described as some valiant, socialist, anti-establishment hero.

[Londonwell]

2 hours ago, MazzyStar said:

Maybe he never explicitly called himself a socialist but he definitely liked to talk about creating a “left wing” Scotland post independence despite nothing about his politics being left wing.

He was also one of the main figures that caused most of the British “left” (and I use left in the vaguest way here) to abandon its eurosceptic position.  

Haven’t read through the thread, so apologies if I’m duplicating responses to this.

In his early political career, Salmond absolutely considered himself a socialist. He was a member of the ‘79 group which was ejected from the SNP for being too left wing. His rebellious side, in that sense, endured to his dying day. He moved rightward both socially and economically throughout his career though. By time he was in a position of power I think describing him as a socialist would be a bit of a stretch. 

[Londonwell]

2 minutes ago, Cardle is Magic said:

Beyond strange to hear a man who cozied up with everyone down at Westminster described as some valiant, socialist, anti-establishment hero.

That is quite a narrow view of someone with a long history in politics.

[MazzyStar]

35 minutes ago, Wee-Bey said:

I get what you're saying and I don't disagree with most of it. I'm just questioning Salmond's influence over the "British left'.

The Europhile position has been standard for the establishment liberal left for over 30 years now.

It was before my time but I think it’s fair to say that the 2000s was a bad time for the “left” in Britain and politicians like Salmond used their (at best) slightly left of centre position to appeal to the left since the Labour Party of the time certainly didn’t. Maybe thats not the case but that’s my interpretation of what I have read and heard from people who did experience that time period. 

[Fullerene]

2 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

Died in North Macedonia. 

Whoever is in charge of the headstone will be pleased it is no longer known as the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".

[Cardle is Magic]

1 minute ago, Londonwell said:

That is quite a narrow view of someone with a long history in politics.

He was an intelligent man and a great speaker but I always felt he was a bit of an arsehole and the last decade has only emboldened that view.

I guess I just never understood the hero worship he received.

[lichtgilphead]

27 minutes ago, MazzyStar said:

That was when he was a non entity. By the time he was anywhere near power he’d abandoned any socialist views he ever had. 

Even if your view is correct, the SNP were still to the left of Scottish Labour in 2007 and in every election since. That certainally wasn't the case before Salmond.

[Londonwell]

Just now, Cardle is Magic said:

He was an intelligent man and a great speaker but I always felt he was a bit of an arsehole and the last decade has only emboldened that view.

I guess I just never understood the hero worship he received.

Clearly he was a bit of an arsehole. That’s nothing to do with his history of being anti-establishment and socialist though. He was obviously a complex man and he has a complex political history.   

[J_Stewart]

Insert <Sleepy cuddles…something…something…69> joke here.

His reputation has been eviscerated the last 7 or 8 years, and at best, his conduct with women was inappropriate and reprehensible, but as a politician, he’s the best this island has seen in the last 3 decades.

What he did with the SNP is incomparable. Reform already had the thick, racist, Brexit support established, those people just needed a new outlet when this version of the tories outstayed their welcome. There was no established support for Scottish independence when Salmond took the SNP reigns, it was essentially a niche for oddballs. There was no appetite for it, and through his guidance it became a cause almost half of the entire nation wanted. As a political legacy, it’s incredible.

I was gutted when he resigned after the referendum. The photo of him swaggering in to Westminster after reelection in 2015 is an all time GOAT smug face. If he had slid off in to the shadows as a party elder after losing that seat I’ve no doubt the allegations would have never come to light and he’d be universally loved by the independence movement as a whole, but his ego just wouldn’t let it happen. Like many larger than life figures, one of his major driving forces and attributes was also his downfall.

Even with all the negatives you can now associate with him, comfortably one of the most influential and important people this country has seen in the last century.

[invergowrie arab]

1 minute ago, Cardle is Magic said:

He was an intelligent man and a great speaker but I always felt he was a bit of an arsehole and the last decade has only emboldened that view.

I guess I just never understood the hero worship he received.

He received hero worship because at one point he genuinely was the leader of a movement who might lead his nation to independence. In another age he might be a Washington, De Valera or Ghandi.

All people who you could legitimately describe as arseholes but equally national heroes. 

He was an arsehole and a national hero. Both can be true 

[Cardle is Magic]

1 minute ago, Londonwell said:

Clearly he was a bit of an arsehole. That’s nothing to do with his history of being anti-establishment and socialist though. He was obviously a complex man and he has a complex political history.   

I think the disagreement comes from actually being anti-establishment or playing a role so your supporters feel you’re fighting for them.

Anyway, I suppose it doesn’t matter. The man is gone now and I’m not going to change anyone’s mind by posting any more.

 

[JagsCG]

41 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Thos would be the same Alex Salmond that was a leading figure in the '79 group?

The same '79 group that was formed as a left wing organisation committed to the establishment of a "socialist and republican Scotland"?

The same Alex Salmond that was expelled ftom the SNP in 1982 (with other '79 Group members) for pushing a more left-wing line?

To be fair being on the left of the SNP in 1979 didn’t mean actually being that left wing (for some perhaps but definitely not all) it meant opposing the more establishment types in the party who were seen as responsible for electoral failings - it did also eventually attract the likes of Sillars who was to the left of many in the SNP at the time. A lot of it was about party image, the 79 Group claimed to have the aims of nationalism, socialism and republicanism but even some of their own supporters didn’t strongly relate with that. To paraphrase Alex Salmond, he said he agreed with the first, had some sympathy with the second and not much for the third. Their variation of socialism was never properly discussed although up until his leadership (first time) he would refer to himself as a ‘socialist’.

The 79 Group being proscribed from the SNP was far more to do with its perceived aim of forming a link with Sinn Fein than it was with a left agenda. 

Edited Saturday at 20:14 by JagsCG

[Alert Mongoose]

Almost in tears at the news. Not for his death tbh, but I guess it feels like an extension of the death of the dream I had of Scottish independence. 

Should his death make any difference to that aim? Probably not tbh but somehow feels that way.

Am I anti English? I've pondered that question but I still can't say for certain. I get on with lots of English people who I consider friends but I despise what I concieve of the English viewpoint and how we are tarred with it whether we agree with it or not.

TLDR - too much red wine.

 

[Cardle is Magic]

Just now, invergowrie arab said:

He was an arsehole and a national hero. Both can be true 

This is why I have no heroes I guess.

[scottsdad]

Neither of my kids have ever heard of him.

He needed more time on TikTok.

[Freedom Farter]

1 hour ago, ClydeTon said:

Being suspicious of Communists (especially during the Cold War) and being suspicious of "the left" in general are two very different things.

The main party the communists in Weimar Germany hated were... the Social Democrats.

 

Maybe if Salmond was around a century ago this would be true but absolutely not today. Britain's overseas operations don't rely on Scotland nor our resources, all we do is sail our handful of boats around with the yanks and hold on to some missiles for them - and let them use the (shrinking) collection of islands the UK owns.

Britain is not a major force, nor an imperial one. Not since 1956.

The UK Military is basically just the support act to the US Armed Forces - in every sense. Not just an ally like other NATO members, but utterly hopeless without the US. Andorra would probably have a solid chance at taking us on today.

My original comment was a defence of Salmond from a left perspective, to be clear.

I'll try not ramble on too much here as we're off topic.

Surely the social democrats' hatred of the communists was more impactful in Weimar Germany given the social democrats were in government. They used their Freikorps to murder Luxemburg and Liebknecht. That the communists later came under the influence of the Soviets (something Luxemburg and Liebknecht had both staunchly opposed) was a predictable outcome of killing the communists' organic German leadership. Anyway, Hugh MacDiarmid. His politics were far from perfect especially when judging by today's standards but my point was that SNP since its early days had been hostile to the radical left. Salmond's emergence changed that.

On imperialism, UK support of USA matters. UK, economically weakened by Scotland separating, would likely have to scale down its role within the US military-industrial complex. For an objective example of what I mean by this, UK is currently USA's largest facilitator of F-35 proliferation (.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II_procurement). Israel is firing missiles from those jets at barefoot children.

[Leith Green]

Kenny MacCaskill statement is a bit classless.

 

 

[scottsdad]

1 minute ago, Leith Green said:

Kenny MacCaskill statement is a bit classless.

 

 

Reads like a ChatGPT testimonial

[Londonwell]

2 minutes ago, Cardle is Magic said:

I think the disagreement comes from actually being anti-establishment or playing a role so your supporters feel you’re fighting for them.

Anyway, I suppose it doesn’t matter. The man is gone now and I’m not going to change anyone’s mind by posting any more.

 

I do see your point, he clearly loved his time in Westminster and it played to his worst characteristics. Imo it doesn’t negate different periods of his political life’s work that publicly rallied against establishments, whether they were in London or Edinburgh.