Melanius Mullarkey Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 @rachelriley https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html?utm_term=link&utm_content=2023-10-12T10%3A37%3A38&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twCNNi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Tattiescone Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 Quote The UK will send surveillance aircraft and two Royal Navy ships to the eastern Mediterranean in plans “to support Israel", No 10 says. The aircraft will begin patrols tomorrow to "track threats to regional stability such as the transfer of weapons to terrorist groups". The support package includes two Royal Navy ships, surveillance assets, P8 aircraft, and a company of marines. Rishi Sunak said the assistance would "prevent further escalation". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67095846 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Connolly Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 39 minutes ago, Melanius Mullarkay said: @rachelriley https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html?utm_term=link&utm_content=2023-10-12T10%3A37%3A38&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twCNNi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shandon Par Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 Britain sending a boat but the BBC could not find a picture of a boat 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNU_Linux Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 12 minutes ago, Shandon Par said: Britain sending a boat but the BBC could not find a picture of a boat A plane is just a sky boat when you think about it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewanandmoreagain Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 21 hours ago, Thistle_do_nicely said: Popped in my yt feed, know its brutal and just never feels like its gonnae end, but it'll hopefully defuse a wee bit of the tension on P&B. wish there was an obvious, palatable way for the conflict to stop. Sick as well as incomplete 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewanandmoreagain Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 8 hours ago, coprolite said: Like all law it protects the interests of the legislators first and foremost but there is still an established basis in treaties and the like. The right to self determination is an established right in international law. It hasn't always been but has been a principle of the UN since it was founded. Self determination doesn't necessarily require a state though. It does, as you say, require a territory. So when the likes of Stan say something along the lines of "clearly the Jews/Palestinians have a right to a homeland" he is speaking shite (legally). A British Jew or a British ethnic Palestinian living in London or New York has no more of a right to a homeland where Israel currently is than I do. I find it hard to see the argument for a moral right either. Stan's argument about why Jews should have a homeland could easily apply to Roma. They don't have the benefit of their history being in abook that's culturally significant to the ruling elite though. Do they have a right to a single territory based on a two millenia previous occupation? I'm not saying that Israel shouldn't exist or shouldn't be a home state for Israeli Jews but that assigning a state as a homeland for people worldwide just on the basis of common culture is dumb. This is less obviously shite than the legal position though and there are arguments. I do agree that the current international legal order looks like it's creaking under the strain. But the makeshift and ad hoc nature of much of it might make it more robust. US v China trade shite might break bits of the WTO without affecting the UN too badly, for example. IIRC the Balfour declaration " hoped " the Jewish homeland would be acceptable to the residents of that land 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewanandmoreagain Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, virginton said: A founding principle that the UN has dinghied since just about day 1 of its existence, with the veto power of the Security Council states giving licence to do so. If the Roma/whatever term those groups prefer start to organise on the principle that they require a territorial state to exercise self-determination, over the course of decades, then they absolutely do have the same right and existing states should respect and adjust to that new reality. Of course, they wouldn't. Whether that new sovereign entity chooses to grant the same rights to co-nationals living around the world is up to them really. The grounds for Israel and Palestinian arguments may be shaky - but they're no less shaky that the foundations of any traditional, Western European nation as and when some group has the temerity to contest that territory. As we've seen often enough on these islands. Where do they get their hoped territory ? Where the majority of them live ? p.s. Is the territory deserted ? Edited October 12, 2023 by Ewanandmoreagain 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewanandmoreagain Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 2 hours ago, ClydeTon said: Double-post of sorts, but I've noted that Israel have referred to this as their "Pearl Harbour", and their "9/11". What do those have in common? Attacks on U.S Soil? No, doesn't fit. Used to start a was? That's more of a consequence, not a cause. So no. Terrorist Cell attacking..? No, Japan is a country... Oh, I know! At Pearl Harbour, the U.S. was warned in advance by Britain. Before 9/11, Britain, Russia and (I think) France - there was a third, I'm sure, maybe not France, not sure - warned the U.S. of the impending attack! In both cases, the warnings were promptly ignored and used as a cause for war... Israeli intelligence and defenses are up at the top of the world's - it's hard for the Palestinians to even plan to move out of Gaza without being caught in the act. Israel would love nothing more than flattening Gaza and taking it for themselves, after all. Certainly, an excuse to take out the closest thing the Palestinians have to a Military, a defense, even... Now that would be fortunate for Israel. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but this all seems to fall into place for Israel, just a bit too much. Either that or the Russians have pulled some strings to take the Western eye away from Ukraine, which is also quite plausible. No and yes 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 35 minutes ago, Ewanandmoreagain said: Where do they get their hoped territory ? Where the majority of them live ? p.s. Is the territory deserted ? If a sufficient number of the Roma etc. community opt to settle a 'homeland' territory then it can be wherever they want it to be, in theory. They wouldn't do so and their right to self-determination would be dinghied in practice, just like most claims to sovereign nationhood. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom Farter Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 Human Rights Watch has confirmed Israel have used white phosphorus in their bombings of both Gaza and Lebanon this week: https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom Farter Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 On 11/10/2023 at 11:00, AMMjag said: It doesn't really matter what the social media platform is or what eccentric billionaire owns it. It's an individual's responsibility to differentiate between a credible primary source and words/pictures on a screen. Related to this, I'm sceptical of the role which self-proclaimed fact checkers are playing. Fact checkers will find some Indian account with almost exclusively Indian followers then fact check a tweet from it to their mostly British audience. Yet that tweet was hardly influencing anyone in UK to begin with. This only serves to further the moral panic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MazzyStar Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) Thousand of people killed. Hundreds of thousands without homes. More than 2 million being deprived of the basic needs of survival INTENTIONALLY. This is genocide. This is genocide that is supported by western governments and western media. NATO, the EU and many others are all complicit. f**k Israel and f**k every single one of its apologists. Edited October 13, 2023 by MazzyStar 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxRover Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 1 hour ago, MazzyStar said: Thousand of people killed. Hundreds of thousands without homes. More than 2 million being deprived of the basic needs of survival INTENTIONALLY. This is genocide. This is genocide that is supported by western governments and western media. NATO, the EU and many others are all complicit. f**k Israel and f**k every single one of its apologists. Are you not, by stating “f**k Israel” also committing the exact same sin that those in power are now doing by tacitly agreeing that Israel can flatten Gaza freely? All of Israel did not cause those, just as all of Gaza/the Palestinians didn’t cause the attack. While I comprehend your excitement, it’s exactly that same sort of short-sighted comment that is being made by wanna be Fascists around the world in the opposite direction. I think the only way his would stop at any reasonable point is if those in power were made to conduct the attacks personally…risk their own lives instead of civilians and soldiers lives…have to know the fear and terror. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom Farter Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) 2016 interview with Israeli-American author Jeff Halper, speculating on why Israel continues to receive international support: https://inthesetimes.com/article/israel-palestine-occupation-jeff-halper-war-against-the-people. Quote ...what I came to was the military-security-policing elements. The quid pro quo is that Israel serves elites. The political, military and economic elites, wherever they are in the world — from the Global North through the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa) countries and down into the Global South. Israel has emerged as world leader in repressing a troublesome population. If you think about it, Israel is a state of just under 10M people. The Palestinian Territories contain just under 5M people. So Israel manages to repress a population as large as half its own population. That's some feat of repression, made all the more unlikely when we consider 2M of those 10M Israelis are actually Palestinian-Israelis, who don't partake in the repression of the Palestinian Territories. Quote Israel generalizes Palestine. It creates what I call “Global Palestine,” the Palestinization of weapons of security in order to meet the specific needs of each country or each set of hegemons that they’re serving. Today the capitalist elites — the corporations, the governments that serve them, the militaries that serve them — are under tremendous stress. Capitalism has always been an expanding system, spreading into new markets, new frontiers. But now, it’s captured the entire world. There are no new markets, there are no new places, so the capitalist system has started feeding off itself What's being said there is that capitalist elites expand their control less by warfare nowadays (although that does still happen, eg. Russia in Ukraine) but rather by furthering domestic repression. Events since that above interview with Halper continue to back up his thesis. The EU border agency Frontex has since contracted Israeli security companies which gained their expertise from surveilling Gazans. There's the infamous Pegasus Spyware, first developed by Israel to spy on Palestinians, which they've now sold to governments around the world. Plenty repression has been aided by it, Saudi's murder of Jamal Khashoggi being an example. Then Azerbaijan recently "Palestinianed" a segment of their population, the Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians, with substantial assistance from Israel. Edited October 13, 2023 by Freedom Farter 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, MazzyStar said: Thousand of people killed. Hundreds of thousands without homes. More than 2 million being deprived of the basic needs of survival INTENTIONALLY. This is genocide. This is genocide that is supported by western governments and western media. NATO, the EU and many others are all complicit. f**k Israel and f**k every single one of its apologists. It is not genocide because there is no evidence that the goal is to literally exterminate the population. It is both a state of war and more relevantly a state of siege. The atrocities that you state are undoubtedly happening to some degree - those are war crimes and those are the inevitable result of besieging any significant population centre. A siege is not an attempt to exterminate though: a siege ends with the surrender of the armed force within it. Genocide should be viewed asan entirely separate category, though it really doesn't help when roasters have been claiming 'genocide' for the alleged transport of children from one state to another, and even 'ecocide' for blowing up dams etc. It's a term that is fast losing its analytical value and becoming a propaganda term thrown at the enemy. Which will of course enable the next genuine act of genocide to proceed under the cover of spin and exaggeration. Edited October 13, 2023 by vikingTON 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky88 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Looking forward to Braverman's reaction if Israelis attempts to claim asylum in the UK 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTG_03 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Looks like the end of Palestine. Getting blown to smithereens by Israel with international support. France banning pro Palestine protests and our wonderful home secretary talking about making the Palestinian flag illegal. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 15 hours ago, Ziggy Sobotka said: I'm pretty sure this guy was saying that lighting up buildings and so on was unacceptable virtue signalling wokery a while back, but hey, he understands that the only rule is there are no rules. Is he not the guy that thinks you can grow concrete? It’s good that really stupid people are represented in the media. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael W Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, coprolite said: Is he not the guy that thinks you can grow concrete? It’s good that really stupid people are represented in the media. That was Mike Graham. I'd prefer daftness was contained rather than spread, but there we are. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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