Burnie_man
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Posts posted by Burnie_man
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1 minute ago, Mystic Blastie said:20 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:There's nothing to suggest that if they bothered to apply that those clubs would be rejected. Quick look at NLS and there doesn't seem to anything obviously wrong with their grounds that wouldn't meet the criteria.
Saying they would get left behind or rejected is just scaremongering.
EDIT: Also if it was just an approach to get all 63 clubs into the WOSFL. Why is there any need for retaining SJFA membersip or playing in the Junior Cup?Obviously George Fraser has a better understanding of the situation than many on here who's main agenda is humiliating Junior football.
Providing a baggage free, new start, independent WoSFL is not humliating anyone, providing clubs with a choice of what league to play in is not humiliating anyone.
Nice spin though.
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1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:
Only a couple of months back you were urging the west region clubs to do pretty much exactly what they are trying to do now through Option W.
And they totally bombed it out the window, and last year, and before that, they even chucked in a dose of racism. Why the change of heart?
The LL have a very workable plan and should stick to it, no compromises, no baggage, fresh start.
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2 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:
For the West Lothian clubs remaining junior has been more important to them. Seems bizzare to me to be honest. However letting them retain junior membership while playing in the EOS gives a solution to that.
There's no solution required. They join or they don't join, and SJFA membership is left at the door. I don't actually think that is what is really stopping them anyway.
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1 minute ago, archieb said:
You really DO have a blinkered view of this don't you.
Of course you see the move to EoSL as having been a success for YOUR club and those that moved with it, but try opening your eyes to what was left behind. THAT is where the chaos was and still is and that is what compromise and negotiation in the West can hopefully avoid.
LOL dear me, if there is anything I'm not is blinkered. Perhaps try looking at the bigger picture and wonder why so many Junior clubs willingly left the SJFA. The clubs left behind chose to do so, do you understand that? their free choice, they still have over 2 weeks to apply for next season. Their CHOICE, nobody is forced to do something they don't want.
You're still not answering any of the questions I posed. Where is the CHOICE in the west? is every single club willing to move?
Another thing, when is the SJFA EGM to approve any of this, same with WRJFA? none of this can move forward until that point. After 31st March per chance?
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Just now, archieb said:
So you regard what has happened in the East as an unmitigated success, which you'd like to see mirrored in the West do you?
Creating a rump set of traditionalist left-behind still-Juniors isolated from their near-neighbours who are slowly deciding to dribble across to the promised land of the pyramid?
Wouldn't it have been so much better if the situation in the East could have been resolved in a one stage of amalgamation involving all the ERSJFA clubs instead of having this chaotic slow trickle in Fife, the lost land of West Lothian and Tayside in Limbo?
And is it really so undesirable that the West clubs should try to find a way to avoid something like that?
It's been an unmitigated success yes. Clubs who moved have never looked back and really enjoyed it. Clubs who do not want to move - as is their right - have continued as is. Interesting the term "promised land" is used, that's what Pyramid detractors normally decribe it as.
If west clubs want to come over en-masse as every single club thinks the Pyramid is the way forward then great but....
Do you believe all 63 clubs are fully engaged with moving and want to move? the evidence suggests not.
If they are, why the need to remain SJFA members and not fully break the ties? clubs in the east did not feel that was a show stopper.
If not, why are the clubs not being given the choice to remain Junior? Must you all think the same or be damned?
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4 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:
It also gives you a solution to the remaining East teams in West Lothian they can join the EOS but retain their SJFA membership.
SJFA membership would essentially just be the same as being a member of the Glasgow FA etc.I wouldn't think there's any chance of that happening.
Just another example of why this won't work, leave the baggage behind.
Nobody has yet explained why east clubs can leave it behind, but west clubs demand it be brought along.
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7 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:
SJFA membership and Junior Cup seems to = Junior Football. His whole approach has been about keeping the grade alive.
Yip, and him and his like will crow about still being Junior clubs, and the right to be SJFA members and play in the Junior Cup will be defended vigirously and will be a weeping sore inside the Pyramid.
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11 minutes ago, G4Mac said:
Why have a divide in the pyramid with some clubs members of the sjfa and some not?
We can swing these arguments round to fit both ways to be honest.
There was clean break in the east, it worked. There doesnt appear to be one in the west, and the west is being led by a man who wants 'history' acknowledged and openly admitted wanting to 'save' the sjfa. ....its a trojan horse divide to continue to further the sjfa cause within the pyramid.
The new league should be free of divide, free of baggage, free of influence from anyone of the mindset outlined above. The current format I fear is doomed from the point of inception, because those who are seeking to hold onto junior status will do and say just about anything to stay in their bubble whilst appearing to buy into the pyramid.
If you buy into the pyramid then buy into it. Drop the junior cup, change rules, drop reinstatement and drop everything else....actually start something new, not a rehash of what you currently have.Bang on.
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9 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:
The South Challenge Cup has a long way to go before it draws in the big game only fans in the way later round junior cup game can.
It will have a longer way to go if it isn't given the chance by having all LL and LL feeder league clubs play in it.
How about change the name to SFA Trophy, tie it up with Scottish Cup sponsorship, play final at Hampden. That is an idea being banded around. There's no intention of dropping it in favour of the Junior Cup, and it is not in the gift of the WRJFA to provide access to non-Junior clubs. It comes with baggage, and divides.
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14 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:
So the new league is the West of Scotland Football League. Fines, Discipline etc will be in line with SFA rules. But Junior football isn't come to an end in the West of Scotland.
Does that mean all the talk we've heard about the specialness and uniqueness of the grade can be boiled down to a cup competition? Since that's all that would be left of Junior football in the West of Scotland by the sounds of it.
Just spotted this. So is Ronney saying there WILL be Junior football in the West of Scotland? will they keep banging the drum that they are Junior clubs because they get to retain SJFA membership? Toxic divide?
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25 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:
Your recent posts suggest your more interested in crushing the SJFA than finding a solution.
Bringing the existing WJFA setup into the pyramid is the most sensible solution. Why have divide in the West with clubs in the pyramid and a separate WJFA league? We've already seen what a farce that has become in the East.
All the clubs come across but the new league is under LL rules. All clubs get to retain their SJFA membership and participate in the Scottish Junior Cup albeit the Cup can't take priority over the league any longer. If that is indeed what is proposed then makes perfect sense with comprise from both sides.It's about getting on with a truly independent league in the west as exists in the east without any of the old baggage. That is (or was) the LL proposal and it was a popular one.
Again, why can't clubs in the west accept that moving into the Pyramid means leaving behind the Junior Cup and the SJFA? the clubs in the east are doing it and have never looked back, why do the west clubs want to retain the comfort blanket?
There is no farce in the east, clubs have a choice to stay Junior or move into the Pyramid, it is open to all. No club should be forced to play in a league they don't want to.
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3 minutes ago, archieb said:
Why on earth do you want to retain this toxic division in Scottish football between 'senior' and 'junior'?
FFS let's make the priority getting everyone into the same pyramid system and the SJFA will gradually dwindle into insignificance like the old county FAs
You haven't explained the rationale of bringing this division into the Pyramid, which will then be defended beligerantly by those who wont ever fully embrace their new environment.
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5 minutes ago, archieb said:
Because those with that attitude are a shrinking (albeit vocal) minority.
In time they will either see the light or f*** off somewhere else.
Shouldn't the WRJFA remain for them though? it's as much their league as anyone elses and if they are anti-Pyramid and want to remain Junior, will they be kicked out?
As said above, Petrie's mantra has always been no club should be forced to moved to a league they don't want to. Is this just something else to be ignored (like the ERJFA and NRJFA).
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Just now, archieb said:
I totally disagree.
The senior/junior divide in Scottish non-League football has been an utterly unnecessary barrier to progress for far too long. The main reasons for its longevity have been the isolationism of the ruling cadre in the SJFA and a significant proportion of its membership.
Just when compromises are within reach to sideline these influences and bring another huge part of the former separatist group within the pyramid fold is NOT the time to create a new or renewed exclusionism from the other side.
This proposal continues the divide but withing the Pyramid and for what benefit? to retain SJFA membership and the Junior Cup.
As I said above, if 30 (soon to be 38+) clubs in the east can leave all that behind, why can't those clubs in the west who want to join the Pyramid?
If clubs don't want to leave it behind then they remain Junior, it's entirely their choice. Just like it is in West Lothian with the majority of clubs wishing to stay Junior.
What happens if there are a dozen WRJFA clubs who don't want to move to the Pyramid like WL? are they f*cked with no league to play in?
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1 minute ago, cmontheloknow said:
Personally, priority should be getting West clubs into the pyramid, as a senior league. Retaining Junior FA membership I don't see as a deal breaker - provided we don't get a Scooby Doo villain scenario where true intentions are revealed once inside the pyramid - "we demand to run our own league again, with fines and reinstatements!" and we need to unmask rampaging mummy to reveal Gordon Ronney & TAJ who will then curse "if it wasn't for you pesky Seniors, we'd have gotten away with it!"
It does make you wonder why there was such a change in 48 hours between a beligerant WRJFA meeting with healthy doses of fighting talk and anti-LL sentiment, and the PWG where there was no such thing and all of a sudden "common ground"
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Just now, archieb said:
F***inell!
It's 'hard Brexit' all over again!
No, what it is, is the west Junior clubs wanting their cake and eating it.
30 ex-Junior clubs have properly embraced the Pyramid in the east, left Junior football behind and have made a complete success of it with no outside influences as baggage, more clubs will follow that path next season.
Why can't west clubs accept that is how it is if you want to be part of the Pyramid? (or at least, should be?)
There is the option of remaining Junior and staying with the SJFA if some clubs don't fancy it.
That is how it should be,
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11 minutes ago, patriot1 said:
Completely agree.
It seems that until after the 23rd we're not going to know the exact nature of the compromise but for me there can't be a junior/senior divide.
And there should only be one national league trophy. If there is a Challenge Cup and Junior Cup then I want Saints playing in the Challenge not the Junior.
As soon as it looks like we have clarity going forward we have to complicate things again.
Typical of Scottish football.
Spot on.
This was the declaration given to clubs on Tuesday. Remember this was the meeting where there was talk of legal action and shouts of "F*ck the LL". Sounds like all four of their "demands" have been met, can someone point out the compromise here?
The LL need to stick to their declared intention of establishing an independent WoSFL free from the influence of outside parties and open to all clubs equally. Anything else is hitting reverse and ends up a fudge.
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9 hours ago, Shannon said:
Letting West teams join the pyramid as one but stay members of Junior FA and play Junior Cup would keep almost every single supporter and committee member of a West Region Junior team happy while enabling clubs who wish to join the pyramid to do so and progress.
The independent WoSFL set-up by the LL enables clubs to join the Pyramid and progress.
The WRJFA enables clubs to remain members of the SJFA and play in the Junior Cup.
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7 minutes ago, the rambler said:
West Region criticised for not going alone and sticking with all in. Now they have gone alone "what's happening with North and East Juniors"
There's a world of difference between Regions agreeing to seek entry as individual organisations (as should have happened a while back), than the WRJFA reneging on the agreed mandate and cutting the other two loose and then volunteering up the Junior Cup to non-members with absolutely no authority or involvement of the other Regions, or the SJFA.
So, when do the ERJFA and NRJFA get a say?
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Just now, LongTimeLurker said:
For months you were saying the west region could enter alone and be the west feeder alongside the EoS and SoS by adopting pyramid norms. Now it appears to be on the verge of actually happening that's suddenly not OK.
Doing things region by region makes sense. The ERJFA needs to dissolve itself into the EoS south of the Tay and the NRJFA needs to hook up with the HL. The only issue that really still needs to be resolved is Tayside
The SJFA/WRJFA had their chance and consistently threw it back in the faces of the Pyramid leagues for years.
The LL set in motion a plan that should have happened at least 2 years ago, they can easily deliver it, they can easily attract sufficient members to make it a success right from the start. I'm not sure why they aren't continuing down that path.
Another open goal missed in this whole saga.
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1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:
Seems to be according to that joint statement and accounts given of the meeting, something along those lines was considered acceptable by the respective league committee reps.
Seems to me the pyramid leagues are doing their members a disservice instead of trying to grow the South Challenge Cup.
It's not in the gift of any one individual at the WRJFA to deliver it, they seem to have gone rogue and have completely forgotten the fact that the ERJFA and NRJFA exist, and it's every much their Junior Cup as anyone else's. Meanwhile the normally vocal TJ remains quiet. The SJFA would also be required to approve these changes at EGM given that (in theory at least) the WoSFL would not consist of Junior clubs.
As you say, we should be aiming for an enhanced South Challenge Cup, that would not happen in these circumstances. LL/EoS/SoS in CC, WoS in JC.
If you want to remain an SJFA member and play in the Junior Cup, stay with the Juniors. If you want to join the Pyramid and play senior football, join an independent WoSFL.
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Just now, LongTimeLurker said:
In the scenario that the rambler describes the LL would effectively be leading the SJFA around in a gimp suit in blazer politics terms. The mind boggles how anyone can see a red line in any of that.
Says you.
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1 minute ago, the rambler said:
Says you
Says me
When do the ERJFA and NRJFA get a say in all of this?
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29 minutes ago, the rambler said:
West Region Juniors join WOSFL en masse. May not need to submit application.
SJFA membership is retained as is entry to Scottish Cup. (East Juniors should have the option to re-join SJFA if they wish to participate in Scottish Cup).
WOSFL rules apply, no reinstatement or player fines, or permits for friendlies or limits on squad sizes etc
League fixtures take precedence, Scottish Cup will be fitted in. Possible changes to replays and 2 legged semi finals.
Win, win for everyone if this goes ahead. Well done Gordon Ronney and LL for hopefully making this happen.
Nope. Red line.
A fully independent WoSFL is the way forward, the LL can set this up and invite applications and it will happen. This is a very uneccesary distraction to moving forward.
EDIT: when do the ERJFA and NRJFA get a say in all of this?
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Junior football, what is the future?
in Junior Football
Posted
Personal attacks now Marshy, so predictable.