Livingston - all the threads merged

[Blue Brazil Forever]

Actually it's very good for the SFL. If a small 'provincial' team ever get into the First Division and enter administration they can chuck them out of the SFL. If Motherwell ever get relegated into the First Division and enter administration, they can give them a slap across the wrist. Etc. etc.

Surely it is up to the administrator to decide: until now, any talk the SFL did was with Massone. But the SFL is only the collection of 30 club chairmen, so they've probably not got involved yet.

Gretna were (ostensibly) placed in the Third Division because their ground wasn't suitable, and the administrator couldn't guarentee to fulfil the fixtures. Neither of those apply to Livi as yet. Unquote.

But Livi don't have a ground: they rented the Stadium from WLC and were taken to Court for non payment of rent and rates. Moreover the ground now has no safety certificate and no insurance so is not fit for purpose under the SFL regulations. The administrator may well find that there are no assets to continue to trade ie to conclude a new or revised agreement with WLC for the continued use of the Stadium.The Council would also have to fund the works to meet SFL and 'elf and safety requirements. Any further public funding in this saga,allied to the previous WLC involvement could provide more than ample grounds for a Judicial Review of WLC's handling of the matter. I would bet too that a Freedom of Information request to WLC could be highly embarrassing. A totally bizarre can of worms

Edited July 24, 2009 by Blue Brazil Forever

[Jay Silverheels]

As predicted many times - they don't know what to do! Ater all this must have been such a shock???????

From tomorrow's Scottish Sun:

SFL In Don't Know Their Arse From A Hole In The Ground Shocker!

The SFL has been a complete joke throughout this whole debacle. You'd have thought they would have had contingency plans in place long before now. They're just a bunch of self-serving incompetent imbeciles.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

F**k that.

Last time we had that (late 80s/early 90s) the SFL computer sent us to Dundee twice, Brechin twice and Forfar twice, whilst each of those clubs only had to visit us once.

We also got sent to Meadowbank twice, but on one occasion we were unaware that we were double booked with a cat show (result - game off).

I vaguely remember that season as i used to go to Forfar games when Dundee were away.

Didn't you totally pump them 5-1 twice away then somehow conspire to lose in the one home game? That one sticks out because it burst a 10 team accumulator that would have won me £350

[Yoss]

Whether or not the SFL could have done more / better, I'm open to dbeate about, but the expectations of what they can and should be able to do has for the most part been totally unrealistic throughout the course of the thread.

Anyway, I'm still confused about this Interim Manager thing, is it so they can go in and have a period of time to make an assessment or make any small changes to business practices that may help without having to go through a formal administration? If so, what happens if there's insufficient funds to pay the wages next week or if revenue is insufficient to meet accruing bills and the administrator realises they'd be trading illegally? How long can this situation go on for and what happens next?

Edited July 24, 2009 by Yoss

[qos_75]

I vaguely remember that season as i used to go to Forfar games when Dundee were away.

Didn't you totally pump them 5-1 twice away then somehow conspire to lose in the one home game? That one sticks out because it burst a 10 team accumulator that would have won me £350

Yes and my one as well. Although It wasn't for as much as that.

[AND180Y]

But Livi don't have a ground: they rented the Stadium from WLC and were taken to Court for non payment of rent and rates. Moreover the ground now has no safety certificate and no insurance so is not fit for purpose under the SFL regulations. The administrator may well find that there are no assets to continue to trade ie to conclude a new or revised agreement with WLC for the continued use of the Stadium.The Council would also have to fund the works to meet SFL and 'elf and safety requirements. Any further public funding in this saga,allied to the previous WLC involvement could provide more than ample grounds for a Judicial Review of WLC's handling of the matter. I would bet too that a Freedom of Information request to WLC could be highly embarrassing. A totally bizarre can of worms

WLC have already done or are going to do the required works.

[unthinkable]

And SSN have it on their breaking news bar now

Rovers called Livingston to instigate that triple sale. It was all us. Not Livvy's fault.

That shows you the difference between Livi and us, we were crippled financially and had no other option but to ask clubs for cash in exchange for players. Livi's owners just carry on regardless and hide under the table then rant it was the previous boards mis-managment and they are not to blame. The same Livi that had a transfer embargo enforced due to non payment of players contracts then within a year are dis-honouring players contracts again. Livi did screw us though as only Marvin was offered but they wanted Toastie and Tosh as well for the measley 30 grand we needed, Tosh apparently as a taxi driver for Marv.

All of Livi's previous owners mis-management are now coming back to haunt them in one big pile of shit, the warning signs were there years ago but the faith put into charlatan white knights have blinded a club that only ever wanted to succeed, just like Gretna. Short term success was opted for rather than long term sustainability. Clubs like Inverness and Ross County have built up in stages with contingency for relegation and failure, two words that Livi owners used to frequently spout "were not an option"

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Yes and my one as well. Although It wasn't for as much as that.

Whats worse is that i almost got a punch in the puss for it.

Went with my Hibs-supporting mate to tannadice. As we were leaving the Hibs end, Hearts scored in the last minute to beat St Johnstone. At which point i said "fucking yassss". Cue my mate looking at me in sheer terror shaking his head. Not one of my finest examples of timing.

[Enigma]

For me, the SFL have to deduct them 10 points. And ask for a guarentee regarding fixtures.

The best result for us, but lets make it 15 points just incase

[cowdenbeath]

Report on STV news says that they have 2 weeks to come up with some money to keep the club afoat as they have no cash flow. Players are playing for nothing.

[Guest]

Report on STV news says that they have 2 weeks to come up with some money to keep the club afoat as they have no cash flow. Players are playing for nothing.

..........and that will happen. They have appointed an interim manager, so technically, they are not in administration.........so Livvy being Livvy, as it stands, if they can get a CVA in place, they'll effectively be able to bump the creditors again, but not face any footballing penalties as they haven't actually gone into administration. They will live to the letter of the law, not the spirit of it..........but I expected that.

Of course, this can all still unravel and they might yet have to formally enter administration and then (hopefully) a might swing of the footballing penalties hammer will ensue. Of course, that might end in a winding up order, but those nice chaps at WLC will seek to provide the funds themselves to make sure that does not happen.

[Fife Saint]

Can someone point out the dancefloor for me?

[Yoss]

..........and that will happen. They have appointed an interim manager, so technically, they are not in administration.........so Livvy being Livvy, as it stands, if they can get a CVA in place, they'll effectively be able to bump the creditors again, but not face any footballing penalties as they haven't actually gone into administration. They will live to the letter of the law, not the spirit of it..........but I expected that.

Of course, this can all still unravel and they might yet have to formally enter administration and then (hopefully) a might swing of the footballing penalties hammer will ensue. Of course, that might end in a winding up order, but those nice chaps at WLC will seek to provide the funds themselves to make sure that does not happen.

But the SFL's rule is flexible enough to be able to act on a CVA, or indeed on what's happened already just as readily as on formal administration (if they see fit):

"The Management Committee shall also have full power to deal with as it thinks fit, including power to deduct championship points before or during a season and/or to impose a player registration embargo on any club guilty of conduct contrary to the interests of the League and its member clubs or any registered player or former registered player, or potentially likely to prejudice the orderly progress of the League Championship and/or the League Challenge Cup competition in any season. Such conduct, for the avoidance of doubt, may include a club in or going into Administration, Liquidation, Receivership, Sequestration or any other insolvency procedure by whatever means or having a Judicial Factor appointed to its undertaking. For the further avoidance of doubt, a club in or going into any such procedure will remain responsible for the purposes of this Rule for the conduct of its undertaking by any Administrator, Liquidator, Receiver, Trustee in Sequestration, Judicial Factor or other such officer appointed to it."

That's not to say they will act on it, we'll have to wait and see, but it's not the case that the SFL will be prevented from taking any action they might otherwise have wanted to by Livi playing the rules.

[speckled tangerine]

Still, all in all, livvy moving nicely along the road to oblivion. Thought i may relive my MTFC supporting days by having a skinful in the Hop, Step & Jump before peering over the fence into the concrete lavvypan. I may even shed a tear as i remember Vic Kasule being a genius.

Rot in hell ya franchise B*******!!!!!

[CommonSense]

Still, all in all, livvy moving nicely along the road to oblivion. Thought i may relive my MTFC supporting days by having a skinful in the Hop, Step & Jump before peering over the fence into the concrete lavvypan. I may even shed a tear as i remember Vic Kasule being a genius.

Rot in hell ya franchise B*******!!!!!

Farewell Ferranti/Meadowbank etc etc etc

Where will the 150 fans go, and I for one will not miss the annoying clowns with the drums.

[Dazzle]

When are we likely to hear what the verdict is going to be from the SFA?

[donny86]

When are we likely to hear what the verdict is going to be from the SFA?

If you read back a few pages maybe you'd find out

[Cowden Cowboy]

Interim manager is roughly equivalent in an adminstration to a provisional liquidator in a liquidation if I recall correctly. It means that there has been a request for administration and the court has not yet granted the order. Interim Manager can take control have quick shufti and see what the prospects are for a reasonable outcome from an administration. Maybe there is a prepackaged solution ready and waiting in the wings.

[Numbers]

Quote from business law

Administration

The role of an administrator is to get the company out of trouble and trading again if possible.

Administrators can be appointed to a company that is unable, or is likely to become unable, to pay its debts. They can be appointed by any of the following:

• the courts - on application from a creditor, directors or partners
  
• the holder of a qualifying floating charge over the assets of the business
  
• the company or its directors
  

An administrator's primary goal is to rescue the company as a going concern. If this isn't possible, the administrator will try to get a better result for the creditors than would be possible if the company was wound up.

If neither of these is possible, the administrator will sell the company's property to make at least a partial payment to one or more secured or preferential creditors, such as employees or the bank.

Livi are in administration as of 09.10 this morning. The company are now being run by an administrative manager (Administrator) whos purpose is to try to save the club by finding an investor. A CVA by Masone does not mean livi are out of administration until the appointed administrator says they are.

Its clear, to me at least, that WLC have taken this step to preserve football in livingston. As WLC have applied for the order, a CVA is almost certainly out of the question at this stage as they clearly would not agree to this as they themselves are not preferred creditors. In this case they are landlords owed £300000.00 in rent arrears. Bank overdrafts, taxes and council taxes are preferential.

The purpose of an administrative manager is to identify the future and immediate viability of livi fc and to see if that business can be saved. His report and contacts with prospective investors would then determine whether administration would continue until agreements have been made and new owners are brought in.

The simple fact of all this is livi is being run by administrators until saved or closed down.

[MCL]

Whether or not the SFL could have done more / better, I'm open to dbeate about, but the expectations of what they can and should be able to do has for the most part been totally unrealistic throughout the course of the thread.

Anyway, I'm still confused about this Interim Manager thing, is it so they can go in and have a period of time to make an assessment or make any small changes to business practices that may help without having to go through a formal administration? If so, what happens if there's insufficient funds to pay the wages next week or if revenue is insufficient to meet accruing bills and the administrator realises they'd be trading illegally? How long can this situation go on for and what happens next?

Nothing much will happen until next week when the Interim Manager has been able to assess the level of debt.

The players have agreed to play for nothing at the moment so are still tied to the club although redundancies can't be ruled out.

The next two games are both away from home but Livi will receive a cut of the gate as they are cup games. The Interim Manager will ask the SFL if it's possible if a home game can be brought forward to this fallow period to try and get some cash in through the turnstyles. He said the club are in a bad way and don't have any assets. The only way of getting money in is if the fans turn up in numbers and pay in to the games.

He will be working with Massone in the short term to try and save the club. The WLC are owed £300,000 and HRMC a similar amount. If Massone is owed £500,000 then he holds the key as the main creditor. He also holds the controlling interest in the club and has to sell his shares if a buyer is found.

I wonder how the "Trust" feel about putting money in to keep the club alive just now knowing that Massone will still be there for a while ?

There have been a few other enquiries about buying the club including McDougall. He has been trying to contact Rankine without success.