The New Raith Rovers Thread

[basher brash]

:lol: :lol:

I thought this was a Rovers topic, Must have been mistaken

[Ebanda's Handyman Services]

1353609659[/url]' post='6832074']

:lol: :lol:

You are a moron.

[Raith Against The Machine]

Right, bear with me on this one lads, I'm in the middle of two weeks between jobs and I've had a lot of time on my hands.

I've decided to have a wee look at the companies that make up Raith Rovers, as a kind of unofficial (and inferior) update to the Who Owns What? article on the Trust website. I'd like to make clear from the outset that I've got no professional experience in any kind of related field, although I did sleep through a couple of Accounting modules at Uni. There's every chance that I might misinterpret a figure or two here and there, and for that I apologise. I'm not using any kind of inside information or special tools. 99% of the source material is from Duedil.com and can be accessed by anyone who bothers to sign up.

New Raith Rovers Limited

Formed in 2005 as part of Reclaim the Rovers, New Raith Rovers Ltd is the uppermost company in this complicated structure, owning 27% of Stark's Park Properties Limited and the majority of Raith Rovers FC Holdings Limited. The company is split up pretty well, nobody has too much control. Turnbull Hutton owns just over 23%, Mario Caira just under 23% (although his company, MC Leisure, owns an additional 10% which I suspect used to be Alec Penman's share), John Sim (as NRR Investments Ltd) owns a little under 18% and the Trust around 12%. Val McDermid has 5.66% while loads of folk including Ian Rankin, Gordon Brown, Nick Hornby and Fame Academy's Richard Park own 0.49% each.

For the year end June 2011,

Total Assets: £1,258,252

Total Liabilities: £278,317

Net Assets: £979,935

More than half of the assets here are taken up by one loan to Raith Rovers Football Club Limited (covered in the section for that company), so nothing to get excited about there. It also lists tangible assets of £421,500 but I'm not quite sure what that covers.

Raith Rovers FC Holdings Limited

I'm struggling to get data on this one, due to what I can only assume is an error. The two sources I can get both have it down as just the one shareholder, an Antony Clark who owns one share. In reality, it appears that New Raith Rovers Limited own the majority of this company (at least 58%) with the Trust and the Supporters Club also owning smaller stakes. This company has the controlling vote (50.1% of the voting share) in Raith Rovers Football Club Limited.

Unfortunately the financial data is equally patchy. I've got a note of Net Assets of £193,847 as of 30th June 2011, but absolutely nothing on any liabilities. Sorry about that.

Raith Rovers Football Club Limited

This, in essence, is "the club". This is the company that the players are employees of, and it handles the day-to-day operations and finance. The largest shareholder, by far, is Raith Rovers FC Holdings Ltd with 45.54%, more than three times that of anyone else. Iain Watt (a retired financier, who was a director of the club from 1988 until 1991) owns 13.39%, a Robert Paxton (who I can find out very little about, other than he was a director of this company from late 1988 until early 1994 and a director at the SFA from mid 1989 until mid 1994, and his occupation is listed as "Publican". Others may know more) owns 13.27%, as does an Alexander Robertson (who I have no information on, but I assume he's from around about the same time). Also, funnily enough, a certain Andy C appears on the list too, with his staggering 0.165% of the company. (You, too, can own a similar amount of the company by taking out a Gold Level membership here.)

The company has loaned a total of £626,210 from New Raith Rovers Ltd which is interest-free and only payable should the company "receive exceptional income". I could be wrong, but I believe this is the figure that increases when a director steps in to pay wages. Similarly, the company has received a loan on the same terms from Raith Rovers FC Holdings Ltd for £153,842.

For the year end 30^th June 2011,

Total Assets: £158,241

Total Liabilities: £1,597,331

Net Assets: -£1,439,090

Clearly, this is where the problems lie. Especially as this doesn't appear to include the "mortgage" on the stadium (for that, see Stark's Park Properties Limited). Of that money owed, at the very least £780,052 is "soft loan" money (I'd imagine it's a much higher proportion than that, with the rest coming from Raith Rovers FC Holdings Ltd), but even though nobody is shouting through the letter box demanding for it back, we're seeing from our neighbours in Dunfermline that it can't be ignored.

Stark's Park Properties Limited

Stark's Park Properties Ltd is the company which deals with the stadium's finances. Formerly known as West City Developments Ltd, this is the company that was formed by certain former directors, possibly with a view to selling off the ground and replacing it with some lovely railway-adjacent three bedroom homes. It was wholly Reclaimed on the 30^th of December 2005 and is now pretty simple in its ownership. John Sim (as NRR Investments Ltd) owns 51%, New Raith Rovers Ltd owns 27% and Mario Caira owns the remaining 22%. Of all the companies, this has the set of accounts that is most up to date (by about 6 months).

For the year end 31^st January 2012,

Total Assets: £762,920

Total Liabilities: £572,514

Net Assets: £190,406

It looks like Stark's Park is valued at £725,035. The rest of the assets are made up of cash (£33,053) and other current assets (£4,832). Clearly the main liability here is the "mortgage" on the ground, owed to the Allied Irish Bank. The big positive to take from this is that the total liabilities of Stark's Park Properties Ltd are down 6.05% from the year before. It's not a massive amount, but it's better than an increase.

To try and give a little more detail on the "mortgage", I've had a wee look at the previous year's accounts too, and the notes that go along with them. Prior to December 2008, the company was paying interest only on a loan from the Allied Irish Bank. At that point, it was restructured into a 15 year repayment plan, at 3% interest above the base rate. So, if all goes to plan, the loan should be paid off in December 2023. The loan is secured against the company's assets (essentially, Stark's Park) and a personal guarantee of £450,000 from John Sim.

I'm not quite sure what the story is with this. Stark's Park Properties Ltd actually makes a profit each year (just under £43,000 for the last year) and there are notes in the accounts that don't exactly speak of great communication between Stark's Park Properties Ltd and the rest of the group. It appears that there's a dispute about all of the missed rent payments during the lean years.

Maybe John Sim takes a cut in exchange for being a safeguard between the club and the bank, making loan repayments in the case of the club falling short on any particular month, but it doesn't seem quite as cosy as that. I'm not even sure if he's taking any money out of the business, though. If there's one question I really want answered, it's about the status of the relationship between Stark's Park Properties Ltd and the wider "Raith Rovers" group.

NRR Investments Limited

This is the investment vehicle that John Sim used for his part in Reclaim the Rovers. It is wholly owned by John Sim and always has been. Essentially, for "NRR Investments" read "John Sim". NRR Investments' accounts are nice and simple. These figures are from the year end 31^st of December 2010. For 2011, the company was listed as non-trading.

For the year end 31 December 2011,

Total Assets: £435,582

Total Liabilities: £435,581.

Net Assets: £1

The assets comprise 51% of the company known as Stark's Park Properties Ltd and just under 18% of New Raith Rovers Ltd, and the liabilities are the capital that was invested that are listed as a "Director's Loan".

Conclusion

I don't know if that's made anything any clearer for anyone else, but it's given me a better understanding of how the whole thing works. While it's clearly not all rosy in the garden by any stretch of the imagination, I've got confidence in the people running the show, especially when compared with some of the characters who have been involved at various points down the line. While the money might not always be there, the good intentions are.

Two things really jump out. The first is clearly to reduce the reliance on director's loans. As I touched on above, it's all well and good saying that they don't need to be repaid until extraordinary income is happened upon, but all it takes is a change in circumstance for the whole situation to become a lot less cuddly (Hiya Pars, hiya pals!).

The other major thing is getting Stark's Park back under full club ownership, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen for at least another 11 years. There doesn't appear to be any desire from John Sim to do anything drastic, if anything he's quite happy to maintain the status quo, but that doesn't seem to be what's best for the club, at least not in the long term.

Finally, I'd like to apologise again for any errors or misinterpretations in the above. They almost certainly exist and I'm more than happy to be corrected on any or all of them.

[pantene proV]

I own 100 shares in Raith Rovers FC Holdings ltd

Oh yes, I'm a player! With a certificate and everyfink.

[Whistle Blower]

Conclusion

I don't know if that's made anything any clearer for anyone else, but it's given me a better understanding of how the whole thing works. While it's clearly not all rosy in the garden by any stretch of the imagination, I've got confidence in the people running the show, especially when compared with some of the characters who have been involved at various points down the line. While the money might not always be there, the good intentions are.

Two things really jump out. The first is clearly to reduce the reliance on director's loans. As I touched on above, it's all well and good saying that they don't need to be repaid until extraordinary income is happened upon, but all it takes is a change in circumstance for the whole situation to become a lot less cuddly (Hiya Pars, hiya pals!).

The other major thing is getting Stark's Park back under full club ownership, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen for at least another 11 years. There doesn't appear to be any desire from John Sim to do anything drastic, if anything he's quite happy to maintain the status quo, but that doesn't seem to be what's best for the club, at least not in the long term.

Finally, I'd like to apologise again for any errors or misinterpretations in the above. They almost certainly exist and I'm more than happy to be corrected on any or all of them.

Thanks for that, so whats changed in the last 12 months since someone posted this ???

[roverthemoon]

Is there not a dispute about what happens to Starks Park when it is 'paid off'. I don't think it's as simple as the club gets it back, hasn't Sim suggested we can then buy it back then? So we're not really paying a mortgage just rent. I could be wrong.

[RRFC2711]

Well done RATM .....buries head back in sand.......I'm off to the pub.......

[Scary Bear]

Right, bear with me on this one lads, I'm in the middle of two weeks between jobs and I've had a lot of time on my hands.

I've decided to have a wee look at the companies that make up Raith Rovers, as a kind of unofficial (and inferior) update to the Who Owns What? article on the Trust website. I'd like to make clear from the outset that I've got no professional experience in any kind of related field, although I did sleep through a couple of Accounting modules at Uni. There's every chance that I might misinterpret a figure or two here and there, and for that I apologise. I'm not using any kind of inside information or special tools. 99% of the source material is from Duedil.com and can be accessed by anyone who bothers to sign up.

New Raith Rovers Limited

Formed in 2005 as part of Reclaim the Rovers, New Raith Rovers Ltd is the uppermost company in this complicated structure, owning 27% of Stark's Park Properties Limited and the majority of Raith Rovers FC Holdings Limited. The company is split up pretty well, nobody has too much control. Turnbull Hutton owns just over 23%, Mario Caira just under 23% (although his company, MC Leisure, owns an additional 10% which I suspect used to be Alec Penman's share), John Sim (as NRR Investments Ltd) owns a little under 18% and the Trust around 12%. Val McDermid has 5.66% while loads of folk including Ian Rankin, Gordon Brown, Nick Hornby and Fame Academy's Richard Park own 0.49% each.

For the year end June 2011,

Total Assets: £1,258,252

Total Liabilities: £278,317

Net Assets: £979,935

More than half of the assets here are taken up by one loan to Raith Rovers Football Club Limited (covered in the section for that company), so nothing to get excited about there. It also lists tangible assets of £421,500 but I'm not quite sure what that covers.

Raith Rovers FC Holdings Limited

I'm struggling to get data on this one, due to what I can only assume is an error. The two sources I can get both have it down as just the one shareholder, an Antony Clark who owns one share. In reality, it appears that New Raith Rovers Limited own the majority of this company (at least 58%) with the Trust and the Supporters Club also owning smaller stakes. This company has the controlling vote (50.1% of the voting share) in Raith Rovers Football Club Limited.

Unfortunately the financial data is equally patchy. I've got a note of Net Assets of £193,847 as of 30th June 2011, but absolutely nothing on any liabilities. Sorry about that.

Raith Rovers Football Club Limited

This, in essence, is "the club". This is the company that the players are employees of, and it handles the day-to-day operations and finance. The largest shareholder, by far, is Raith Rovers FC Holdings Ltd with 45.54%, more than three times that of anyone else. Iain Watt (a retired financier, who was a director of the club from 1988 until 1991) owns 13.39%, a Robert Paxton (who I can find out very little about, other than he was a director of this company from late 1988 until early 1994 and a director at the SFA from mid 1989 until mid 1994, and his occupation is listed as "Publican". Others may know more) owns 13.27%, as does an Alexander Robertson (who I have no information on, but I assume he's from around about the same time). Also, funnily enough, a certain Andy C appears on the list too, with his staggering 0.165% of the company. (You, too, can own a similar amount of the company by taking out a Gold Level membership here.)

The company has loaned a total of £626,210 from New Raith Rovers Ltd which is interest-free and only payable should the company "receive exceptional income". I could be wrong, but I believe this is the figure that increases when a director steps in to pay wages. Similarly, the company has received a loan on the same terms from Raith Rovers FC Holdings Ltd for £153,842.

For the year end 30^th June 2011,

Total Assets: £158,241

Total Liabilities: £1,597,331

Net Assets: -£1,439,090

Clearly, this is where the problems lie. Especially as this doesn't appear to include the "mortgage" on the stadium (for that, see Stark's Park Properties Limited). Of that money owed, at the very least £780,052 is "soft loan" money (I'd imagine it's a much higher proportion than that, with the rest coming from Raith Rovers FC Holdings Ltd), but even though nobody is shouting through the letter box demanding for it back, we're seeing from our neighbours in Dunfermline that it can't be ignored.

Stark's Park Properties Limited

Stark's Park Properties Ltd is the company which deals with the stadium's finances. Formerly known as West City Developments Ltd, this is the company that was formed by certain former directors, possibly with a view to selling off the ground and replacing it with some lovely railway-adjacent three bedroom homes. It was wholly Reclaimed on the 30^th of December 2005 and is now pretty simple in its ownership. John Sim (as NRR Investments Ltd) owns 51%, New Raith Rovers Ltd owns 27% and Mario Caira owns the remaining 22%. Of all the companies, this has the set of accounts that is most up to date (by about 6 months).

For the year end 31^st January 2012,

Total Assets: £762,920

Total Liabilities: £572,514

Net Assets: £190,406

It looks like Stark's Park is valued at £725,035. The rest of the assets are made up of cash (£33,053) and other current assets (£4,832). Clearly the main liability here is the "mortgage" on the ground, owed to the Allied Irish Bank. The big positive to take from this is that the total liabilities of Stark's Park Properties Ltd are down 6.05% from the year before. It's not a massive amount, but it's better than an increase.

To try and give a little more detail on the "mortgage", I've had a wee look at the previous year's accounts too, and the notes that go along with them. Prior to December 2008, the company was paying interest only on a loan from the Allied Irish Bank. At that point, it was restructured into a 15 year repayment plan, at 3% interest above the base rate. So, if all goes to plan, the loan should be paid off in December 2023. The loan is secured against the company's assets (essentially, Stark's Park) and a personal guarantee of £450,000 from John Sim.

I'm not quite sure what the story is with this. Stark's Park Properties Ltd actually makes a profit each year (just under £43,000 for the last year) and there are notes in the accounts that don't exactly speak of great communication between Stark's Park Properties Ltd and the rest of the group. It appears that there's a dispute about all of the missed rent payments during the lean years.

Maybe John Sim takes a cut in exchange for being a safeguard between the club and the bank, making loan repayments in the case of the club falling short on any particular month, but it doesn't seem quite as cosy as that. I'm not even sure if he's taking any money out of the business, though. If there's one question I really want answered, it's about the status of the relationship between Stark's Park Properties Ltd and the wider "Raith Rovers" group.

NRR Investments Limited

This is the investment vehicle that John Sim used for his part in Reclaim the Rovers. It is wholly owned by John Sim and always has been. Essentially, for "NRR Investments" read "John Sim". NRR Investments' accounts are nice and simple. These figures are from the year end 31^st of December 2010. For 2011, the company was listed as non-trading.

For the year end 31 December 2011,

Total Assets: £435,582

Total Liabilities: £435,581.

Net Assets: £1

The assets comprise 51% of the company known as Stark's Park Properties Ltd and just under 18% of New Raith Rovers Ltd, and the liabilities are the capital that was invested that are listed as a "Director's Loan".

Conclusion

I don't know if that's made anything any clearer for anyone else, but it's given me a better understanding of how the whole thing works. While it's clearly not all rosy in the garden by any stretch of the imagination, I've got confidence in the people running the show, especially when compared with some of the characters who have been involved at various points down the line. While the money might not always be there, the good intentions are.

Two things really jump out. The first is clearly to reduce the reliance on director's loans. As I touched on above, it's all well and good saying that they don't need to be repaid until extraordinary income is happened upon, but all it takes is a change in circumstance for the whole situation to become a lot less cuddly (Hiya Pars, hiya pals!).

The other major thing is getting Stark's Park back under full club ownership, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen for at least another 11 years. There doesn't appear to be any desire from John Sim to do anything drastic, if anything he's quite happy to maintain the status quo, but that doesn't seem to be what's best for the club, at least not in the long term.

Finally, I'd like to apologise again for any errors or misinterpretations in the above. They almost certainly exist and I'm more than happy to be corrected on any or all of them.

I think Bob Paxton was the guy whose casting vote condemned us to the god-awful SPL, 'for the good of the game'.

[Raith Against The Machine]

Thanks for that, so whats changed in the last 12 months since someone posted this ???

As far as I can tell, not an awful lot. It looks to me like the money owed to outside parties is down, but the director's loans are up. I wouldn't expect that to change any time soon, either.

Is there not a dispute about what happens to Starks Park when it is 'paid off'. I don't think it's as simple as the club gets it back, hasn't Sim suggested we can then buy it back then? So we're not really paying a mortgage just rent. I could be wrong.

In the simplest terms, looking purely at the information in the various accounts and not taking any other deals into consideration, then the bankloan being paid off makes absolutely no difference to the rent or the relationship between Raith Rovers Football Club Ltd and Stark's Park Properties Ltd. You would hope that there's an agreement in place for when that day comes, but with John Sim owning 51%, there doesn't have to be. He could conceivably continue charging the Rovers' rent forever. As before, this is what I'd like a little clarification on. What are John Sim's long term objectives?

[roverthemoon]

What are John Sim's long term objectives?

You would hope being a Rovers fan that he'll do what is in the long term interests of Raith Rovers FC

[roverthemoon]

I'm not sure what I've got ownership wise. I've definitely got shares in New Raith Rovers through the gold membership. I've also got £500 worth of shares from years ago. Might be Raith Holdings rather than the actual football club. All totally worthless so its fairly academic.

[Whistle Blower]

As far as I can tell, not an awful lot. It looks to me like the money owed to outside parties is down, but the director's loans are up. I wouldn't expect that to change any time soon, either.

That's my point, nothing's changed, nothing to see here. Disappointed not to get a mention, as my own shareholding went up 500% in the last 12 months

In the simplest terms, looking purely at the information in the various accounts and not taking any other deals into consideration, then the bankloan being paid off makes absolutely no difference to the rent or the relationship between Raith Rovers Football Club Ltd and Stark's Park Properties Ltd. You would hope that there's an agreement in place for when that day comes, but with John Sim owning 51%, there doesn't have to be. He could conceivably continue charging the Rovers' rent forever. As before, this is what I'd like a little clarification on. What are John Sim's long term objectives?

John Sim had the money and his dad is a diehard fan, it's as simple as that. He doesn't see eye to eye with the board, but if he's here to make money then he's backed the wrong horse. He is simply a guarantor to the Allied Irish Bank, should the club fail to stump up.

If you want a scapegoat, you need to look at the people who got us into the selling and releasing of the ground in the first place, or the people who allowed the debt to get so out of control, that was our only lifeline.

[roverthemoon]

John Sim had the money and his dad is a diehard fan, it's as simple as that. He doesn't see eye to eye with the board, but if he's here to make money then he's backed the wrong horse. He is simply a guarantor to the Allied Irish Bank, should the club fail to stump up.

If you want a scapegoat, you need to look at the people who got us into the selling and releasing of the ground in the first place, or the people who allowed the debt to get so out of control, that was our only lifeline.

I don't think anyone is looking for a scapegoat on here. The management of the club in the past was a car crash but I don't see any point in looking back. I'd rather focus on the future and how we can get a long term, secure solution to the stadium issue and getting the football club on a level footing with no need for debt or soft loans.

[Raith Against The Machine]

Yeah, that's spot on. I don't think there's anyone with bad intentions hanging around. I'd really like for someone to sit down and explain John Sim's role in the whole thing to me, but obviously that's not going to happen! It's more through my lack of understanding rather than any real concern.

WB, I didn't see your name crop up, maybe next year...

[Whistle Blower]

Yeah, that's spot on. I don't think there's anyone with bad intentions hanging around. I'd really like for someone to sit down and explain John Sim's role in the whole thing to me, but obviously that's not going to happen! It's more through my lack of understanding rather than any real concern.

With regard to Sim, he guarantees the allied Irish bank loan, it's as simple as that.

He has been quoted as being happy to leave this to someone else if they have the cash to satisfy the bank.

[Ebanda's Handyman Services]

Not sure if we have many 200 Club members on P&B but just in case...

There are a couple of 'completion' photos of the new 200 Club uploaded on to the 200 Club website's homepage.

I've only added a couple at the moment as the official site has agreed to run a wee feature on the new club that I'm currently in the process of putting together...

www.raithrovers200club.webs.com

Remember folks, the club is open for members and non members after every home game for post match refreshments.

Also, Decembeard participants are up to 5. Any additional participants would be extremely welcome.

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

Not sure if we have many 200 Club members on P&B but just in case...

There are a couple of 'completion' photos of the new 200 Club uploaded on to the 200 Club website's homepage.

I've only added a couple at the moment as the official site has agreed to run a wee feature on the new club that I'm currently in the process of putting together...

www.raithrovers200club.webs.com

Remember folks, the club is open for members and non members after every home game for post match refreshments.

Also, Decembeard participants are up to 5. Any additional participants would be extremely welcome.

Hi Andy,

How much is it to join?

[Ebanda's Handyman Services]

Hi Andy,

How much is it to join?

£20 per season, Zen.

Introduce yourself if you drop by/join up.

[RoversMad]

Happy 27/11 Everyone!!!

Edited November 27, 2012 by RoversMad

[Michael W]