Big Rangers Administration/Liquidation Thread - All chat here!

[Mark Connolly]

I really don't understand this incubator stuff - isn't it just the equivalent of hiding assets from creditors?

[TheTaxMan]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/05/03/rangers-in-crisis-ally-mccoist-makes-dramatic-appeal-to-fans-to-give-prospective-new-owner-bill-miller-a-chance-86908-23846205/

[Granny Danger]

I don't think this has been posted here - gloomy predictions from a contributor on the Scots Law blog:

(ETA - the smileys are not in the original, can't get rid of them on my phone).

Regrettably, what will happen in my opinion is this…

1) rangers 1872 will form a new company say rangers 2012 (‘incubator’)and transfer its SPL share (each club has 1 share in the SPL)

2) Duff and Phelps as administrators will sell the ‘Goodwill’ or ‘intellectual property’ of the old club to the new club, probably for a nominal sum. That includes its History of trophy’s leagues etc.

3) The old company will try and exit administration via a CVA (Company Voluntary Agreement) by way of offering its creditors a ‘pennies in the pound’ deal.

4) HMRC will NOT settle for 10-15p/£ they will press for upwards of 50p.

5) If the big tax case goes against rangers HMRC (and Ticketus who are owed £27 Million ) will BLOCK a cva. Result of that will ensure rfc 1872 is liquidated.

6) Rfc 2012 will continue in the SPL as if nothing happened, with minimal sanctions as there is no sanctions available under the current articles of association. The spineless directors who adjourned Monday’s meeting will reconvene next week and pass new rules for clubs getting in a mess in the ‘future’. This against a backdrop of intimidation and fear not to mention nepotism.

7) Rfc 2012 will offer shares to the mass of orcs and buy large!….result will be that they’re still up there competing against Celtic. Meanwhile Dunfermline who have been financially prudent all season (closing stands to save money) will be relegated…hence the uproar about footballing integrity, both moral and sporting.

Whyte who has a floating charge over ALL assets as it was assigned to him from Lloyds TSB when he settled the overdraft using Ticketus money. He will either sell to rfc 2012 over a period for many millions or transfer the assets and remain a major shareholder in the new company. Once on their feet he can sell his shareholding…assets restored, whyte walks with Millions…win win.

9) Ticketus may try and block deal, but Lord Hodge has observed that they are a normal creditor and should be treated as such. An observation NOT a ruling as he had insufficient time and information to make a proper judgement. Ticketus will pursue Whyte separately (which will take years)

10) SFA meanwhile will uphold partial sanctions (maybe 6 m ban on transfers suspended to see if they pay the outstanding money on players at present) and the semi-derisory fine of £160,000 will be halved.

11) UEFA will ban rfc 2012 from Europe for 1 (maybe 3) years.

12) SPL will rule that rfc 1872 broke the rules using EBT’s and may or may not strip them of trophies. It won’t matter as rfc 1872 is in liquidation.

13) Domestic and European clubs who were damaged with their cheating will desist from pursuing rfc 1872 for damages as they are in liquidation

Summary

1) The rangers fans will claim a seamless history despite rfc 2012 having a new company number. (You can change names to the cows come home but it is the number which is important. Celtic FC have had the name number registered at companies house since 1887).

2) The creditors will be stiffed big style including HMRC and Ticketus.

3) Business as usual for SPL

4) Business as usual for SFA

5) Duff and Phelps will be lauded as geniuses and can take their seats at Ibrox whenever they want…despite the Police warning them that it was unsafe at a recent league match….our old friend Intimidation again!

6) UEFA may make some noises under financial fair play rules (STILL TO BE INTRODUCED)but will let domestic association deal with it all.

7) Due to intimidation, threats, aggressive posturing rfc have essentially got their way….the authorities have capitulated.

David Murray absolved…indeed not even questioned.

9) Whyte seen to be playing ball will be left alone as his actions will have been vindicated…semi heroic status conferred.

10) The establishment club saved.

11) Bigger than usual party in Stirling on July 7th 2012……a real ‘we arra peepil celebration’….confirmed by the actions of all involved.

I personally, will not so much as watch another football match in Scotland let alone spend money to go and see one. There will be many like me…for a short while, then normal service will be resumed.

Far be it for me to question these legal experts, but it strikes me that if companies (not just football clubs) could avoid their financial obligations in this way whilst maintaining their public profile it would be far more widespread. Particularly companies that only had to worry about company law and did not have the added pressure of working under regulatory bodies (i.e. SFA, SPL, UEFA).

My instinct is that there are flaws in Bill Miller's plans and these will become quickly apparent.

Anyway the idea of ownership of Rangers going from someone like Craig Whyte to someone like Bill Miller should fill the h**s with dread.

[MarreZ]

Chick Young giving us the run-down on what Brian Kennedy is wearing. Cheers for that Chico.

Anytime I see him, he looks as if he's dressed like Rab C Nesbit.

[Spain]

Rangers can't be saved in their current form. H&D are just making a cheeky extra £500k for themselves with this "exclusivity" nonsense before the plugs pulled at the end of the month.

[Desert Nomad]

Far be it for me to question these legal experts, but it strikes me that if companies (not just football clubs) could avoid their financial obligations in this way whilst maintaining their public profile it would be far more widespread. Particularly companies that only had to worry about company law and did not have the added pressure of working under regulatory bodies (i.e. SFA, SPL, UEFA).

My instinct is that there are flaws in Bill Miller's plans and these will become quickly apparent.

Anyway the idea of ownership of Rangers going from someone like Craig Whyte to someone like Bill Miller should fill the h**s with dread.

On the contrary I'm afraid, it's similar to when that shady character Melville came to Dundee, the fans will only see what they want to see.

[Jacksgranda]

According to Chris McLaughlin on Twitter (and a few others), preferred bidders will be announced by Fluff and Whelps today.

Yes, but whose definition of "today" are we using - normal peoples or Duff & Phelps?

[Owsley]

Chucking out some old papers right now, I see that the Record said on April 21st that Bill Miller would be announced as preferred bidder "on Monday".

[Fasda]

RFC(IA) remain concerned only with where they might be next season, who they can afford or not to buy, CL, "institutional history" etc but they don't see the big picture; taxes and dual contracts. Tick, tock.

Getting quotes from sally is like getting quotes from the workshop manager when your local engineering company goes titsup, interesting on a personal scale but irrelevant in the real world.

[Fasda]

This Scots 'lawyer' raises some interesting points but on the subject of law you maybe want to take what he says with a pinch of salt as the guy who writes it has been suspended(see link).

http://www.lawscot.o...r/news_20100902

His history is well known, especially on here where it gets bumped every week or two. Fair comment, add to that he's a...."republican apologist"?? However, what he writes may well be sh*te but it's nae the usual PR guff and we can make our own minds up on that, the RFC(IA) fans should try that last bit now and then?

[Fasda]

I don't trawl through every page on this just to make sure it hasn't been posted before and I'm not having a go as I find it interesting too but I just wanted to point that out.

I guess I am now finding reasons to not believe in anything he says as I don't want to think that Rangers can or will come out of this unharmed, debt free and with all their history intact.(We all know it's coming but until it happens I won't to hold on to some belief that they will rightly be punished)

Fair enough. My point is that he is clearly biased but at least he bothers to raise issues that the MSM either don't want to or are incapable of. I gues if he was a pukka, dosh earning lawyer he wouldn't be messing around with a blog but he has been one of the non-mainstream commentators that has given this story legs from the beginning. 10-20 years ago it would have all been sorted out of the public gaze. More power to bloggers and forums!

[MarreZ]

I don't trawl through every page on this just to make sure it hasn't been posted before and I'm not having a go as I find it interesting too but I just wanted to point that out.

I guess I am now finding reasons to not believe in anything he says as I don't want to think that Rangers can or will come out of this unharmed, debt free and with all their history intact.(We all know it's coming but until it happens I won't to hold on to some belief that they will rightly be punished)

Actually the only thing to stop Rangers coming out relatively unscathed is the stubbornness of their fans by refusing a newco and backing Millers bid.

[pozbaird]

Actually the only thing to stop Rangers coming out relatively unscathed is the stubbornness of their fans by refusing a newco and backing Millers bid.

The only thing? No need to take HMRC, The BTC, The EBTs, Ticketus, UEFA, or Whyte being a stubborn cnut into the equation?

[thelegendthatis]

From today's Scotsman.

"Miller, who intends to place part of Rangers in an incubator company while using a CVA to deal with what he describes as the 'toxic' part of the company, has stated his bid is conditional on the club starting next season in the SPL without any further financial penalties or points deductions.

SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster said earlier this week that no such assurances could be provided to Miller but did suggest that Rangers' place in the top flight could be transferred to a "newco" without sanctions if it was at the discretion of the SPL board of directors. Even with a preferred bidder announced, there remain myriad problems for Rangers to solve. The issue of current owner Craig Whyte's majority shareholding and his security over Ibrox Stadium and Murray Park are the biggest factors facing any purchaser.

Kennedy and the Blue Knights were at pains to make it clear their bid was dependent on Whyte releasing the 85 per cent shareholding he purchased from Sir David Murray for £1 a year ago this month. Miller has stressed he is the only prospective purchaser who has "refused to engage in discussions" with Whyte. It remains to be seen how Miller intends to circumvent the control Whyte still exerts."

At least the Scotsman is now trying to give a fuller story than most others. If someone buys something at £1 it gives them the opportunity to sell it at the market rate, which must be more than £1.

And Ally McCoist gives his expert opinion "Everyone has to be given a chance. We would all be wrong to sit and be judge and jury immediately before anything happens. I don't think we are in a position to be anything other than supportive of someone who will come in and hopefully take the club forward. We've got to be supportive of that person or persons."

Is that Craig Whyte he is talking about? Well it was a year ago, but now it is Bill Miller! And next year who will it be?? Don't think Ally cares as long as his inflated salary plus EBT is paid in full. Loyal my ar**.

Edited May 3, 2012 by thelegendthatis

[pozbaird]

Ally will be fine. Phil Tuffnell and Matt Dawson are shiteting themselves. Of course, the first guaranteed thing is Ally trousering a cool 90k or so for the serialisation of 'Ally - My Ibrox Hell'.

It's the cooks, cleaners and groundsman I feel sorry for. Losing their jobs when the administrator's axe swings... erm, hold on...

Edited May 3, 2012 by pozbaird

[iceblink]

Appeal time today at the SFA.: from STV website:

The panel has a number of powers to deal with the case, ranging from affirming the original decision, upholding the appeal, upholding the appeal in part and referring the case back to the tribunal.

The tribunal also has the ability to either increase or decrease the original sanction imposed on the club. It also has the power to take any action it deems appropriate at its own discretion.

I assume that they lodge the appeal today, then it takes a few days to be processed.

Would be good if they had the balls to increase the original sanction based on the behaviour of McCoist, Jardine, etc since the original decision was announced, but somehow I think we all can guess the outcome.....

[Fasda]

Appeal time today at the SFA.: from STV website:

I assume that they lodge the appeal today, then it takes a few days to be processed.

Would be good if they had the balls to increase the original sanction based on the behaviour of McCoist, Jardine, etc since the original decision was announced, but somehow I think we all can guess the outcome.....

With the loyal hordes waiting for the names and addresses to be "clarified" publicly there is no chance of the sanctions being sustained never mind increased and who can blame them? It will take someone from outwith oor wee cesspit to do the right thing.

[chico]

Ally will be fine. Phil Tuffnell and Matt Dawson are shiteting themselves. Of course, the first guaranteed thing is Ally trousering a cool 90k or so for the serialisation of 'Ally - My Ibrox Hell'.

It's the cooks, cleaners and groundsman I feel sorry for. Losing their jobs when the administrator's axe swings... erm, hold on...

Ally must be a shoo-in for a diet video.

He's certainly working his 'before' look.

[MarreZ]

The only thing? No need to take HMRC, The BTC, The EBTs, Ticketus, UEFA, or Whyte being a stubborn cnut into the equation?

You know as well I do that it will all more than likely get dodged quite easily.

[H Wragg]

Fair enough. My point is that he is clearly biased but at least he bothers to raise issues that the MSM either don't want to or are incapable of. I gues if he was a pukka, dosh earning lawyer he wouldn't be messing around with a blog but he has been one of the non-mainstream commentators that has given this story legs from the beginning. 10-20 years ago it would have all been sorted out of the public gaze. More power to bloggers and forums!

MSM?