Belfast Council remove Union Flag

[Guest]

I agree completely. Which is why those who queue up on this webiste, and there have been many, to castigate the Scots for our ancestors' treatment of Irish immigrants should be very careful about that.

When they refuse to criticise the Irish for their treatment of Jewish immigrants (and their government's refusal to accept JEwish immigrants escaping from tyranny) you have to question their agenda.

I don't know anything about that, perhaps others are the same? The fact is that no matter what "side" you're on, people pick holes with the other side whilst blindly defending their own. On the other side of what you're saying, some will hold the Irish in contempt for everything bad they've ever done whilst defending everything Britain has ever done. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Depressingly, or amusingly in a dark humour way, non-White second generation Britons have admitted voting for the BNP because they want the drawbridge pulled up now.

We don't want their sort here (well, now that my dad has made it over).

On a similiar note, my mum was in a chippy a while back and the guy behind the counter was moaning about all the Poles and Pakistani's taking over. My mum had to actually point out that neither of them were in a place to complain when she's born and raised Irish, and he's second generation Italian.

I've complained about generalisations, but one I'm happy to make is that all racists are fucking brain donors.

[H_B]

The religous aspect of Irish discrimination in Scotland is noteworthy

Again, I really don't think you want to go down that road.

The Irish mistreatment of the Jews was absolutely religious in its character. Which is why the Limerick Pogrom was led by a Redemptorist priest.

This priest urged the Catholic community to shun the Jews in their midst, something they did with relish.

In terms of engendering hatred of a people or a sub-culture, the Catholic church is most certainly a practised hand.

As I've said before, the main issue for the Irish government in the 20th century, and the Irish people, is the influence of the Catholic Church on secular matters. And of course the lack of criticism of this from the public, so enthralled to the RC hierarchy.

Which is why the state have in the past covered up RC child abuse at state institutions.

And it's why the Irish government were able to easily institute a bigoted immigration policy.

It's interesting that Kevin denigrates the Scots for their treatment of aliens accepted into the country, but it's "nothing to see here" when the Irish condemn thousands of immigrants to death by closing the gates and raising the drawbridge.

[vikingTON]

the same as the usa.

history has proven that the finns took the right course of action. finland is a liberal, prosperous, democratic nation and has been for decades whilst the warsaw pact states suffered misery after misery.

Well no, this is confusing cause with effect. Finland's status was not preserved in any way by going to war against the Soviet Union: the Soviets could have pressurised them into the Warsaw Pact in 1945 had they wished. Stalin simply lost interest once the approaches to Leningrad were secured.

The Western Allies would have done absolutely hee-haw had the Communists seized power in Finland.

[vikingTON]

Firstly, the whole religious/political divide is a problem in some parts of Scotland too, that's even more pathetic when you consider people are arguing over another country and its problems.

So you believe the bigotry of Old Firm fans and their ilk is more pathetic than fighting a full-blown civil war over forms of the sky-fairy and its relation to national identity?

Think you have your priorities wrong there tbh.

Secondly, this whole thing never would've been a problem if back in the day people didn't come to Ulster and plant their flag down. Where do you think they came from?

An utterly specious argument to absolve Northern Irish people clinging to the 17th Century myths by citing 17th Century history.

A lot of these bigots in Ulster deserve contempt, but us Scots are the last people who should brand a whole country as arseholes, especially when half of them are basically Scottish themselves.

Well no, your trite point doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. Scots aren't acting as a disgusting parasite on the rest of the taxpayers in the Union, regardless of views on the latter's worth. Scots haven't conducted a full scale civil war over their sectarian legacy. As a result, Scots are more than qualified to label the Northern Irish as idiotic, bigoted scum for their actions.

[Guest]

So you believe the bigotry of Old Firm fans and their ilk is more pathetic than fighting a full-blown civil war over forms of the sky-fairy and its relation to national identity?

Think you have your priorities wrong there tbh.

An utterly specious argument to absolve Northern Irish people clinging to the 17th Century myths by citing 17th Century history.

Well no, your trite point doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. Scots aren't acting as a disgusting parasite on the rest of the taxpayers in the Union, regardless of views on the latter's worth. Scots haven't conducted a full scale civil war over their sectarian legacy. As a result, Scots are more than qualified to label the Northern Irish as idiotic, bigoted scum for their actions.

Well done on missing the entire point I was making.

The bit in bold just summarises why there's no point discussing this with you. Personally speaking I wouldn't call half my family idiotic, bigoted scum, but if you want to do so then bash on.

[vikingTON]

Well done on missing the entire point I was making.

No, I think I picked up on your mewling deflection about Scotland's problems rather well. And as summarised, Scotland's internal problems are a drop in the ocean compared to the virulent bigotry and violence of Northern Ireland.

The bit in bold just summarises why there's no point discussing this with you. Personally speaking I wouldn't call half my family idiotic, bigoted scum, but if you want to do so then bash on.

Truth hurts I'd guess.

[Jacksgranda]

More 'folk tunes'?

One man's "folk songs" are another man's "party tunes". You pays your money and takes your choice.

[T_S_A_R]

Well no, this is confusing cause with effect. Finland's status was not preserved in any way by going to war against the Soviet Union: the Soviets could have pressurised them into the Warsaw Pact in 1945 had they wished. Stalin simply lost interest once the approaches to Leningrad were secured.

The Western Allies would have done absolutely hee-haw had the Communists seized power in Finland.

so if in winter 1939 the finn's had welcomed the ussr in with open arms they would have been independent again once the war ended? of course not, the finns were gifted to the ussr by first nazi germany and then the allies and only maintained their status as an independent democracy through warfare.

if the finns hadn't fought back against ussr advances then they would have suffered the same fate as poland and the baltic states. it's true that the western allies would have done little for finland which is why it's was vital they defended their own territory.

[vikingTON]

so if in winter 1939 the finn's had welcomed the ussr in with open arms they would have been independent again once the war ended? of course not, the finns were gifted to the ussr by first nazi germany and then the allies and only maintained their status as an independent democracy through warfare.

Given they lost both the Winter War and the Second World War I'm not sure what you're basing this on.

if the finns hadn't fought back against ussr advances then they would have suffered the same fate as poland and the baltic states. it's true that the western allies would have done little for finland which is why it's was vital they defended their own territory.

Would that be the Poland that was reconstructed at the war's end? The fundamental flaw in your theory is merging the Winter War and the Second World War as one continuous conflict for Finland. There was absolutely no purpose in Finland declaring war on the Soviets after the Winter War, and given the overwhelming force of the Soviets by 1945, they were very lucky that they didn't get hammered like East Germany did. Nothing to do with Soviet respect for their independent democracy.

[T_S_A_R]

Given they lost both the Winter War and the Second World War I'm not sure what you're basing this on.

Would that be the Poland that was reconstructed at the war's end? The fundamental flaw in your theory is merging the Winter War and the Second World War as one continuous conflict for Finland. There was absolutely no purpose in Finland declaring war on the Soviets after the Winter War, and given the overwhelming force of the Soviets by 1945, they were very lucky that they didn't get hammered like East Germany did. Nothing to do with Soviet respect for their independent democracy.

they maintained their independence and the majority of their territory which were their goals. they avoided soviet occupation and all the joys that brings. their attack in 1941 was clearly intended to regain the parts of karelia they lost in the winter war.

i never said the russians had any respect for their democracy or that they couldn't have crushed them in 1945 but there are very few areas that the ussr took a step back from in those days and if they had occupied finland it is unlikely they would have given it up.

trying to paint the ussr as the wronged party here is ridiculous. they attacked a much smaller neighbour in 1939 and had designs on western expansion as set out in the molotov ribbentrop pact. finland was entitled to defend it's hard won sovereignty any way it sought fit.

[Booker-T]

Can I look to you to defend the good folk of Glasgow next time its we are all bigots and scumbags?

i think he does already.

[~~~]

Anyways back on topic, and i'd appreciated it if HB can pop into the Celtic European thread and congratulate Neil Lennon.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...reland-20630146

Northern Ireland's First Minister Peter Robinson has appealed for loyalists to suspend all Union flag street protests.He was speaking after a spate of violence over the vote to stop flying it every day at Belfast City Hall.

Police have been attacked in rioting and premises of the centre-ground Alliance Party have also been targeted.

The PSNI have said that some roads are being blocked by loyalist protesters in north and south Belfast.

Mr Robinson said he wanted a "shared future" but added that this would not involve a "diminution of our Britishness".

"People's right to protest is justified and legitimate and should be defended," he said.

"However, my advice is that street protests should be suspended by those responsible for organising them in the wider interests of a peaceful society and to ensure their protests are not used by others to launch a campaign of violence."

Protesters have been blocking a number of roadsThe DUP leader was heavily critical of the decision to restrict the flying of the Union flag to about 20 designated days, saying to celebrate the move as a compromise was "perverse".

He called on the council to back a plan to have it flown every day near the cenotaph in the Garden of Remembrance at City Hall, and said his party was seeking to extend the number of days on which the Union flag flies at Stormont.

The PSNI's Chief Constable Matt Baggott criticised the violence surrounding the protests.

Mr Baggott said that paramilitaries had been present at some of the protests and police would examine if there was a "conspiracy".

"Loyalism can never be an excuse or adherence to a flag can't be an excuse to compromise democracy," he said.

"To use mob rule and violence as way of asserting people's will is compromising the rule of law.

"I call on people to take a step back - there is far too much at stake for the future and for the here and now."

Mr Baggott said that since Monday, 19 officers had been injured in trouble associated with protests and seven people have been arrested.

"Clearly we do have paramilitaries involved, some are involved as individuals, some are involved within their communities but we will be looking very carefully indeed to see whether there has been any conspiracy and a degree of orchestration," he added.

A loyalist mob set fire to an Alliance Party office in Carrickfergus in County Antrim on Wednesday night and the home of two councillors in Bangor was attacked.

A 20-year-old woman appeared in court on Thursday charged in connection to the violence in Carrickfergus. A 17-year-old female and a 15-year-old boy have both been charged with affray and unlawful assembly following disturbances.

They are to appear at Belfast Youth Court on Friday.

There was also an attempted arson at the Bangor constituency office of Alliance Minister Stephen Farry.

The leader of Northern Ireland's Alliance Party, David Ford, called the attacks an "assault on democracy".

Mr Ford said if people were called onto the streets in a "charged atmosphere violence is almost inevitable".

Mr Ford, who is also the Stormont justice minister, said police are monitoring social media with a view to prosecuting anyone involved in organising violence.

The Northern Ireland Assembly is to discuss the attacks at a special meeting on Monday.

This follows a request from Mr Ford for an immediate recall, which was backed by the SDLP's Pat Ramsey and two Ulster Unionist assembly members, Basil McCrea and John McCallister.

However, Sinn Fein preferred holding any special session on Monday, before other scheduled business is dealt with, arguing that a divisive debate at Stormont might fuel tensions over the weekend.

On Monday, at Belfast City Council, nationalist councillors had wanted the flag at Belfast City Hall taken down altogether, but they voted on a compromise from the Alliance party that it would fly on up to 20 designated days.

The vote was 29 to 21, with unionists accusing Sinn Fein, the SDLP and Alliance of attacking their cultural identity.

[welshbairn]

Attacking the Alliance Party? Was that after they shot Bambi?

[~~~]

They respect it, not worship it.

So the violence is just out of respect?

I hope you get a reprimand for this disgraceful attack on religion

Religion can f**k off, if If the sky fairy had a problem with that he can speak with me

[Half Rice Half Chips]

Scotland: Took in hundreds of thousands of Irish catholics when they were in dire need although they suffered prejudice for some time when there.

Didn't most of the Irish Catholic migration to Scotland take place in the 19th and early 20th centuries when both Scotland and Ireland were part of the UK? I assume people were free to move within the UK back then but open to correction. Yet the rhetoric is always that Scotland "took in" the Irish like we had some sort of "McEllis" Island. Did Scotland have the jurisdiction back then to turn away British citizens?

[Gordon EF]

Didn't most of the Irish Catholic migration to Scotland take place in the 19th and early 20th centuries when both Scotland and Ireland were part of the UK? I assume people were free to move within the UK back then but open to correction. Yet the rhetoric is always that Scotland "took in" the Irish like we had some sort of "McEllis" Island. Did Scotland have the jurisdiction back then to turn away British citizens?

If only. Then I wouldn't exist and wouldn't have to read any of the shite coming off Kev's keyboard.

[old school]

The unionist people getting pissed on again

[oht]

As a result, Scots are more than qualified to label the Northern Irish as idiotic, bigoted scum for their actions.

Errr no. No-one is entitled to "label" millions of people with a sweeping generalisation, particularly one like "idiotic, bigoted scum". If a student of history hasn't grasped that nationality doesn't define the individual then no wonder intolerance is so rife.

As it is, the definition of bigot is someone who is intolerant of any ideas other than their own.

That's you.

Bigot

[vikingTON]

As it is, the definition of bigot is someone who is intolerant of any ideas other than their own.

Defined by whom exactly, and why should we accept this definition?

Given that the Northern Irish electorate vote in overwhelming numbers for the bigot parties, I'm not making a generalisation: I'm stating the facts as they are. You might as well throw your hands in the air about the 'sweeping generalisation' that plantation owners of the south were more than a little bit racist, going by your cop-out account of historical study.

[oht]

Defined by whom exactly, and why should we accept this definition?

Given that the Northern Irish electorate vote in overwhelming numbers for the bigot parties, I'm not making a generalisation: I'm stating the facts as they are. You might as well throw your hands in the air about the 'sweeping generalisation' that plantation owners of the south were more than a little bit racist, going by your cop-out account of historical study.

dictionary.com

Fail #1: plantation owners?! Making a judgement of someone based on something they have control over (occupation/property) and something they have no control over (nationality) is not the same thing, no matter how much you wish it were so that your views could be acceptable.

Fail #2: you said that you, purely because of the country you were born in, were "qualified" to "label" all people from NI as "idiotic, bigoted scum". There was no reference to voting and even if there were, the entire population did not vote for sectarian parties. How does it make any sense for a Scottish BNP voter to be "qualified" to call an Alliance voter or a child from NI as "idiotic, bigoted scum"?

Nationality is not a defining characteristic. Deal with it.