Belfast Council remove Union Flag

[Heart & Soul]

I wonder if all the Celtic fans defending Nationalists in Northern Ireland are also Scottish nationalists?

Most Celtic fans are just utter morons, so probably not.

[roverthemoon]

I'm a Scot with no stake in Northern Ireland. I can guarantee that the next time these "dissident republicans" hurt someone you'll see me condemning it utterly, with no caveat.

Shame you couldn't condemn any Nationalist violence in this incident now regardless of how it kicked off. It's as moronic as the Unionist violence, not as long lived of course but equally moronic.

Always next time though eh?

Team: Celtic.

Then again, I won't hold my breath.

[Ivo den Bieman]

Really depressing to witness, this stuff.

There is talk in the Belfast papers of 'twenty people holding the entire province to ransom'. Apparently this is all being directed and controlled by a few well known criminals and ex paramilitaries in East Belfast. The wonder is that if they are that well-known, why they haven't already been arrested for directing terrorism or some such. It couldn't be that some of them are already state assets, could it?

Some people have been puzzled at the persistence of this kind of old behaviour in parts of NI, perpetrated largely by:

- ex paramilitaries who use have used their connections and ready access to weaponry to extend and develop criminal empires

- ex paramilitaries unable to adjust from the old 'Troubles' to a peace situation, even one as uneasy as this;

- young nuggets with low self esteem, no education and zero prospects wanting to re'enact the violence of a time which they never experienced for themselves;

-the utter failure of the political process and in particular the loyalist political parties (the defunct UDP and David Ervine's old PUP, in freefall since his death) to engage the working class in the new GFA structures. Hence, the withdrawal / disillusion of section of the loyalist w/c with the political process, providing fertile breeding ground for this new generation of young nuggets mentioned above;

- the lack of ability of what's left of the leadership of the old paramilitaries to control and discipline the young extremists who want to turn the clock back;

- the failure of less intelligent sections of the Unionist / Loyalist community to realise that they have actually won. Martin McGuinness shook the Queen's hand earlier this year and is Deputy FM of a partitionist parliament. OK, so the nationalist local council has dropped the UJ for a while. So what? NI is secure in the UK for as long as the majority of the people want it. What else really do unionists and loyalists want? There's no returning to the 'Protestant State for Protestant People' that characterised NI prior to '69. If that really is the aim of the more lunatic fringes of that community then it's as unattainably nuts as the RIRA etc aim to bomb the Brits out of Northern Ireland.

sad, sad stuff. but also a warning that the peace process, however good it looks on paper, is not delivering in certain parts of NI society and that politicians need to urgently address the reasons why if old spirals of violence are not once again to become a daily nasty reality.

[welshbairn]

Really depressing to witness, this stuff.

There is talk in the Belfast papers of 'twenty people holding the entire province to ransom'. Apparently this is all being directed and controlled by a few well known criminals and ex paramilitaries in East Belfast. The wonder is that if they are that well-known, why they haven't already been arrested for directing terrorism or some such. It couldn't be that some of them are already state assets, could it?

Some people have been puzzled at the persistence of this kind of old behaviour in parts of NI, perpetrated largely by:

- ex paramilitaries who use have used their connections and ready access to weaponry to extend and develop criminal empires

- ex paramilitaries unable to adjust from the old 'Troubles' to a peace situation, even one as uneasy as this;

- young nuggets with low self esteem, no education and zero prospects wanting to re'enact the violence of a time which they never experienced for themselves;

-the utter failure of the political process and in particular the loyalist political parties (the defunct UDP and David Ervine's old PUP, in freefall since his death) to engage the working class in the new GFA structures. Hence, the withdrawal / disillusion of section of the loyalist w/c with the political process, providing fertile breeding ground for this new generation of young nuggets mentioned above;

- the lack of ability of what's left of the leadership of the old paramilitaries to control and discipline the young extremists who want to turn the clock back;

- the failure of less intelligent sections of the Unionist / Loyalist community to realise that they have actually won. Martin McGuinness shook the Queen's hand earlier this year and is Deputy FM of a partitionist parliament. OK, so the nationalist local council has dropped the UJ for a while. So what? NI is secure in the UK for as long as the majority of the people want it. What else really do unionists and loyalists want? There's no returning to the 'Protestant State for Protestant People' that characterised NI prior to '69. If that really is the aim of the more lunatic fringes of that community then it's as unattainably nuts as the RIRA etc aim to bomb the Brits out of Northern Ireland.

sad, sad stuff. but also a warning that the peace process, however good it looks on paper, is not delivering in certain parts of NI society and that politicians need to urgently address the reasons why if old spirals of violence are not once again to become a daily nasty reality.

A lot of fair points there, but what the Nationalist community have to recognise is how much they've won. Effective control of Belfast and Stroke City for one(two). A radical party of their own, sharing power with the Unionist elite who would never set foot in the communities where the violence takes place. Why use that new power to fuel the rage of people who already feel disenfranchised, over a flag that was difficult to notice? The UDP were happy to go along with it, fanning the flames of the fuse lit by Sinn Fein, to undermine the political threat of the Alliance Party. It may or not be a myth that while IRA men in gaol spent their time doing OU degrees, the UDA/UFF etc concentrated on body building. But the political nous that Sinn Fein have clearly got indicates that they knew exactly what they were doing, maybe as a sop to their hardliners, Great fun to troll the loons, but what have they gained?

[roverthemoon]

Really depressing to witness, this stuff.

There is talk in the Belfast papers of 'twenty people holding the entire province to ransom'. Apparently this is all being directed and controlled by a few well known criminals and ex paramilitaries in East Belfast. The wonder is that if they are that well-known, why they haven't already been arrested for directing terrorism or some such. It couldn't be that some of them are already state assets, could it?

Some people have been puzzled at the persistence of this kind of old behaviour in parts of NI, perpetrated largely by:

- ex paramilitaries who use have used their connections and ready access to weaponry to extend and develop criminal empires

- ex paramilitaries unable to adjust from the old 'Troubles' to a peace situation, even one as uneasy as this;

- young nuggets with low self esteem, no education and zero prospects wanting to re'enact the violence of a time which they never experienced for themselves;

-the utter failure of the political process and in particular the loyalist political parties (the defunct UDP and David Ervine's old PUP, in freefall since his death) to engage the working class in the new GFA structures. Hence, the withdrawal / disillusion of section of the loyalist w/c with the political process, providing fertile breeding ground for this new generation of young nuggets mentioned above;

- the lack of ability of what's left of the leadership of the old paramilitaries to control and discipline the young extremists who want to turn the clock back;

- the failure of less intelligent sections of the Unionist / Loyalist community to realise that they have actually won. Martin McGuinness shook the Queen's hand earlier this year and is Deputy FM of a partitionist parliament. OK, so the nationalist local council has dropped the UJ for a while. So what? NI is secure in the UK for as long as the majority of the people want it. What else really do unionists and loyalists want? There's no returning to the 'Protestant State for Protestant People' that characterised NI prior to '69. If that really is the aim of the more lunatic fringes of that community then it's as unattainably nuts as the RIRA etc aim to bomb the Brits out of Northern Ireland.

sad, sad stuff. but also a warning that the peace process, however good it looks on paper, is not delivering in certain parts of NI society and that politicians need to urgently address the reasons why if old spirals of violence are not once again to become a daily nasty reality.

Good post.

A major one for me is the role of the ex-paramilitaries. In a normal society these hard men would be pretty low down the pecking order in society but during the Troubles they rose to prominence and positions as 'leaders' and people to be feared. With that came status and all the trappings of it. Now that there is peace they're not going to give that up and go work as bouncers which is probably their natural position in a normal society. So no wonder any sign of trouble and they are there agitating.

The other factor is the disconnection from the political process a lot of working class Protestants feel. We've seen it in England with a lot of poorer sections of society who feel normal politics has failed them so turn to the BNP. In Northern Ireland they turn to violence and rioting.

While I agree that on the face of it they have 'won' as someone else put it with NI firmly part of the UK for the foreseeable future, that win has come at a price. They see people who bombed f**k out of their community for 30 years now sitting in Government and in charge of schools and other stuff. That's a pretty bitter pill to swallow for all Unionists but most are prepared to swallow it for peace. The danger is that if you've no job or fell you have no future or are simply a stupid ned then you'll probably riot at any excuse.

None of the above excuses any of the violence in these protests. That's completely unacceptable and actually damages their 'cause'. But they're probably too stupid to realise that.

[welshbairn]

But it's only a flag, or so the rioters are told.

[Ivo den Bieman]

A lot of fair points there, but what the Nationalist community have to recognise is how much they've won. Effective control of Belfast and Stroke City for one(two). A radical party of their own, sharing power with the Unionist elite who would never set foot in the communities where the violence takes place. Why use that new power to fuel the rage of people who already feel disenfranchised, over a flag that was difficult to notice? The UDP were happy to go along with it, fanning the flames of the fuse lit by Sinn Fein, to undermine the political threat of the Alliance Party. It may or not be a myth that while IRA men in gaol spent their time doing OU degrees, the UDA/UFF etc concentrated on body building. But the political nous that Sinn Fein have clearly got indicates that they knew exactly what they were doing, maybe as a sop to their hardliners, Great fun to troll the loons, but what have they gained?

This is very true, the Nationalist community is simply light years ahead of where it was politically and socially at the end of the 60s. There may have been a degree of complacency or indifference in the flag issue (I am not sure why it was done now and for what reasons) which has bitten them hard on the arse. But their fumbling handling of it by politicians indicates this much more worrying dislocation between people and the political process. So what, you might say- it is true all over Europe. But in the context of a post-conflict society with political violence, its causes and effects, firmly rooted in popular memory, this dislocation is a very worrying sign for me. After all, it was the complacency and indifference of the old Stormont parliament, and their pisspoor response to the NICRA movement, that helped the troubles to start in the first place.

As long as you have a narrative where braindead phrases such as 'They Took ar Fleg' on one hand, and extremist republicans accusing the SF leadership of 'sell out and betrayal', and without hard work on the ground to point out the utter emptiness of these dead end political 'strategies', then this will just keep on churning. The current generation of Stormont politicians may rubbish them as an unrepresentative and tiny minority, but a group of young people are being slowly radicalised again by these distrubances. Without an alternative; real involvement in politics and real prospects for actually making something of their lives, then we all know from the history of the late twentieth century in NI where such early disturbances and a complacent response to violence can end.

[welshbairn]

One problem has to be that the only issue that unites the Unionist parties with most working class protestants is sectarian stuff. They're basically Tory/UKIP with bowler hats and sashes. Whereas SDLP has always been associated with the Labour Party, and the Provos broke with the Official IRA to pursue a Marxist agenda, to give Sinn Fein a bedrock in Socialism. So working class protestants don't really have anyone speaking for them on day to day issues so they see politics as something that's only about flags and shit. If they had representatives who were actively involved on the ground trying to improve things, they might be less likely to smash things and people up over trivial stuff.

[Ivo den Bieman]

One problem has to be that the only issue that unites the Unionist parties with most working class protestants is sectarian stuff. They're basically Tory/UKIP with bowler hats and sashes. Whereas SDLP has always been associated with the Labour Party, and the Provos broke with the Official IRA to pursue a Marxist agenda, to give Sinn Fein a bedrock in Socialism. So working class protestants don't really have anyone speaking for them on day to day issues so they see politics as something that's only about flags and shit. If they had representatives who were actively involved on the ground trying to improve things, they might be less likely to smash things and people up over trivial stuff.

I agree on the Unionist / Loyalist dynamic, to be honest I think a lot of people particularly those on the 'cutting edge' of Loyalism during the period of the troubles have seen through it all. New formations are emerging which point to the utter redundancy of sectarianism / jingoism as a way of understanding politics. They are only at the very beginning though and it will take a lot of time.

If you listen to older Loyalists like Winston Rea and the views of Ervine whilst he was still alive, it was pretty clear that whilst they wanted to preserve their British identity at a high price, they now saw and knew paramilitary Loyalism as a dead end. Rea in particular was scaldingly contemptuous of Paisley who made his whole career on marching Loyalists up to the top of the hill and then disowning and condemning them when they actually followed through on his words.

The UDP / PUP were attempts to give a parliamentary voice to the different brands of paramilitary Loyalism. The UDP failed, in spite of the tireless efforts of Gary McMichael, because not enough people in the UDA /UFF were trusting enough of the peace process (even if you overlook the presence of maverick Bonapartist psychopaths like Johnny Adair within their ranks). The PUP got traction largely through Ervine but has really struggled since his death, and the question now has to be whether the Loyalist / Unionist political market is far too saturated for such parties ever to have an impact. (DUP-UUP-TUV will hoover up 95% of those votes in perpetuity) The PUP, which has a programme calibrated towards the working classes (some have called it 'Strasserite') allied with Union Jack trimmings, is an attempt to do that. However if Billy Hutchinson's leadership fails then the party is done for.

Broadly, though, I think the sense is amongst many ordinary working people in NI is that the folk responsible for making their lives hell for thrity + years are now the very same people that are profiting the most from the subsequent peace, whislt they are left to rot. That has sickened many or produced weary disillusionment amongst others. This is true on both sides of the divide. The IRA's Brendan Hughes for example, came to loathe Adams at the end of his life and died a bitter man without being reconciled to his former comrade, as he regarded the GFA as not what he had fought for. I think he ended his life feeling used by someone smarter, who was playing a game that he had little understanding of, during the height of the troubles. Anyway, the upshot is a rank of disillusioned voters. They are not big enough yet to cause sustained trouble- most ppl seem delighted with relative peace and stability in NI- but as I said earlier, a lot more care has to be taken that those who feel excluded from the gains of peace aren't so enraged by their exclusion that they feel the need to take up arms again.

(PS: the 'official IRA' was following a Marxist-Leninist platform in the south. The Provisionals were formed under the leadership of Sion MacStiofan as they rejected the Marxist line and followed a more traditional repoublican agenda. They were vindicated after the IRA's total unreadiness and failure to defend the Nationalist communities from what they termed the 'Loyalist pogroms' of the summer of '69. Sinn Fein and the PIRA were leftist in orientation but fundamentally rejected the doctrinaire, pacifist-orientated Marxism of the southern leadership.)

[Hampden Diehard]

I know it i was from the ROI i'd want nothing to do with that shitstorm up north

In Dublin for a Scotland match, talking to two old codgers in the pub....they hated EVERYONE from the north. Had no time for them at all and said that they couldn't behave themselves when they came into the Republic on day trips etc. "They make a helluva mess."

Was in Belfast a few years ago when QP went on a pre-season tour. Great time was had by all, albeit there were some "WTF??" moments. Getting off the train in Lurgan, to be met by the Republican area, then the police station that looked like something from a science fiction comic..then walking through the Unionist area near Glenavon's park....almost surreal. Worst though was when I was chatting up a young American tourist in The Crown pub and she told me she was a lesbian. Saved me saying it when she rebuffed my semi-drunken overtures, I suppose.

[welshbairn]

(PS: the 'official IRA' was following a Marxist-Leninist platform in the south. The Provisionals were formed under the leadership of Sion MacStiofan as they rejected the Marxist line and followed a more traditional repoublican agenda. They were vindicated after the IRA's total unreadiness and failure to defend the Nationalist communities from what they termed the 'Loyalist pogroms' of the summer of '69. Sinn Fein and the PIRA were leftist in orientation but fundamentally rejected the doctrinaire, pacifist-orientated Marxism of the southern leadership.)

Yes, cheers, my memory was flipside on that one..

[Half Rice Half Chips]

In Dublin for a Scotland match, talking to two old codgers in the pub....they hated EVERYONE from the north. Had no time for them at all and said that they couldn't behave themselves when they came into the Republic on day trips etc. "They make a helluva mess."

I agree, I've found that southerners generally have a great dislike of northerners of EITHER stripe - they think they're complete fucking headcases.

[wunfellaff]

I agree, I've found that southerners generally have a great dislike of northerners of EITHER stripe - they think they're complete fucking headcases.

''of a certain age''.............. after ''southerners'' is more likely...........

[welshbairn]

Worth a listen: News Special - Inside the Flag Protests

[oscar mad]

I'm hearing some unionist are trying to organise a flag day march on the bloody Sunday anniversy this month.

[Wee Bully]

I'm hearing some unionist are trying to organise a flag day march on the bloody Sunday anniversy this month.

To be fair to them, Bloody Sunday is a symbol, in exactly the same way as the Union Jack.

[H_B]

To be fair to them, Bloody Sunday is a symbol, in exactly the same way as the Union Jack.

Of course, as we have established, the bloody Sunday protesters had no business being on the streets.

There were riots you know....

[Gaz]

What a fucking shambles of a place. The entire country is needing towed out into the middle of the Atlantic and sunk.

[H_B]

What a fucking shambles of a place. The entire country is needing towed out into the middle of the Atlantic and sunk.

I think, as some sensible posters have suggested, that they need to become self sufficient.

If they want to waste their time removing flags and protesting about it, go right ahead. But pay for your own policing, your own social bill and get on with it. Knock yourselves out - literally.

One of the problems of course is the history of the place. How can Sinn Fein ever, with a straight face, denounce violence on the streets?

[Jacksgranda]

I think, as some sensible posters have suggested, that they need to become self sufficient.

If they want to waste their time removing flags and protesting about it, go right ahead. But pay for your own policing, your own social bill and get on with it. Knock yourselves out - literally.

One of the problems of course is the history of the place. How can Sinn Fein ever, with a straight face, denounce violence on the streets?

But, but, but that was a " measured and justifiable armed struggle in response to unprovoked sectarian pogroms against a defenceless, disenfranchised, oppressed nationalist community, carried out by loyalist mobs, orchestrated by the malign hand of the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland, and aided and abetted by a discredited RUC and the overwhelming apparatus of Crown Forces, all of which were defeated by the plucky and resourceful IRA who were not afraid to join their enemy in open battle, who were not afraid to hide in ditches while setting off bombs and shooting part time members of the security forces in the back while they went about their civilian jobs, fully supported by their beleaguered community who were overjoyed to have such gallant men among their number", which struggle has achieved its aim of an All-Ireland 32 County Socialist Republic of Sinn Fein sitting in a partionist Parliament at Stormont.