Sons' sorrow

[BallochSonsFan]

1 hour ago, cremola foam said:

Thanks for that, very clear. Daft questionfrom me. Ballpark figure Brabco might accept, are we talking millions, hundreds of thousands or what?

There's a figure that Stainton wants. It's 7 figures, and we're not talking £1million here. There's also a figure that other Brabco members would probably deal at.

The figure I've heard from a couple of years ago was hugely unrealistic based on the club and reflected their hopes for a return from the Youngs Farm development, if they could make it happen. The club isnt worth anything like the amount that they think the Youngs Farm development would return for them.

They'll need to eventually decide whether they cut and run or stick it out to the potentially bitter end. They'll lose money if they're relying on the club going bust and them selling the current ground. They'd lose more money if they sold the club as a going concern on the basis of it's value as a football club. There will be a Brabco fantasy figure and a Brabco reality figure but we're not really in the position where they're ready to walk away from the fantasy and face up to the reality.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

There's a figure that Stainton wants. It's 7 figures, and we're not talking £1million here. There's also a figure that other Brabco members would probably deal at.
The figure I've heard from a couple of years ago was hugely unrealistic based on the club and reflected their hopes for a return from the Youngs Farm development, if they could make it happen. The club isnt worth anything like the amount that they think the Youngs Farm development would return for them.
They'll need to eventually decide whether they cut and run or stick it out to the potentially bitter end. They'll lose money if they're relying on the club going bust and them selling the current ground. They'd lose more money if they sold the club as a going concern on the basis of it's value as a football club. There will be a Brabco fantasy figure and a Brabco reality figure but we're not really in the position where they're ready to walk away from the fantasy and face up to the reality.

Let's agree on one thing here; the Young's Farm proposal is dead in the water. Not a blade of grass has been purchased and the obstacles to moving there have intensified, especially the financials. You mentioned interest from a third party; my understanding is that it is Scandinavian-based and it is predicated on DFC relocating. It's a fantasy being peddled by a fantasist who was/is part of Brabco. My immediate fear is that the Brabco have utterly no motive to support the club, and DFC enters a slow but steady decline.

[BallochSonsFan]

18 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

1 hour ago, BallochSonsFan said:

There's a figure that Stainton wants. It's 7 figures, and we're not talking £1million here. There's also a figure that other Brabco members would probably deal at.
The figure I've heard from a couple of years ago was hugely unrealistic based on the club and reflected their hopes for a return from the Youngs Farm development, if they could make it happen. The club isnt worth anything like the amount that they think the Youngs Farm development would return for them.
They'll need to eventually decide whether they cut and run or stick it out to the potentially bitter end. They'll lose money if they're relying on the club going bust and them selling the current ground. They'd lose more money if they sold the club as a going concern on the basis of it's value as a football club. There will be a Brabco fantasy figure and a Brabco reality figure but we're not really in the position where they're ready to walk away from the fantasy and face up to the reality.

Let's agree on one thing here; the Young's Farm proposal is dead in the water. Not a blade of grass has been purchased and the obstacles to moving there have intensified, especially the financials. You mentioned interest from a third party; my understanding is that it is Scandinavian-based and it is predicated on DFC relocating. It's a fantasy being peddled by a fantasist who was/is part of Brabco. My immediate fear is that the Brabco have utterly no motive to support the club, and DFC enters a slow but steady decline.

My understanding of the interested party is that they wanted to bring in young players from the continent to try and give them exposure to clubs who would then take them on for a fee.

Brabco have absolutely no intention of supporting the club. It simply isnt going to happen. They're not going to spend a single penny on Dumbarton. They have their controlling interest and they're not going to allow any investment that dilutes that shareholding. It's difficult to see an exit for Brabco. No football buyer will pay them what they want. Youngs Farm is as distant now as at any point since Brabco bought into the club. Their options are to cut and run or to stick it out to the bitter end and hope that either there's a massive change in heart at WDC or that the club quietly calls it a day. The hope is that internal fighting within Brabco would encourage the former option and that there would be a push from within for them to try and get some money back. The fear is that the investors see it as money already spent and simply let whatever happens happen.

There is no clear route here for Brabco and that gives us a real headache. 

[Boghead ranter]

The Vale are tweeting that former Son Columb McKinley has passed away, age 70.

Part of the team that got to the Scottish Cup semis in 1976. 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Boghead ranter

[Nowhereman]

There isn't enough money for them in the club folding. The current ground isn't worth a lot for housing by the time you adjust for clean up costs. It's not going to be Brabco's preferred option as it doesn't give them the return they want. That's not to say that they'd be heartbroken if it happened.

If the ground isn’t worth a lot for housing I don’t get why Brabco bought it in the first place. I always understood that they purchased with a view to selling for housing. Nothing has changed with the land since they purchased it. Did they not carry out sufficient checks on the land before they bought it?

[BallochSonsFan]

2 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

If the ground isn’t worth a lot for housing I don’t get why Brabco bought it in the first place. I always understood that they purchased with a view to selling for housing. Nothing has changed with the land since they purchased it. Did they not carry out sufficient checks on the land before they bought it?

Andy Hosie was involved in selling the idea to them. I don't think they really knew what Andy was selling them.

 

[vikingTON]

Why do Brabco still control the club itself, rather than trying to hive off the land, charging the club a peppercorn rent to use it and not have to deal with running a (from their perspective) daft wee Scottish football club? Surely it would make more sense for them to sit it out as landlords and come back with a new development plan a few years down the line?

The reason I ask is that this is the exit plan currently set up for the sweetie company that owns Morton, now that the rest of the Rae family want shot of the club. A fan ownership group is poised to take control of the club this summer - but the ground and its similarly tempting potential development land is to stay in the Rae family's hands and a minimal rent paid to use it by the club. Given the state that these clowns are leaving behind the scenes on their way out the door though, there is growing sentiment to reject the current terms and hound then into giving further concessions, such as a buy-back option. 

The parallels between the situations at the two clubs are significant enough to draw lessons/tactics from. Dumbarton's situation is almost certainly worse in that your owners' entire M.O. is property development, but I don't understand why they are staying put when our disinterested owners are leaving with what they want intact. The failure of Brabco's stadium move project meanwhile underlines the viability of Morton's fan ownership retaining/regaining control of the stadium land, as it is not the prime value asset that speculators think it is so long as you have a football club and other stakeholders to account for. 

[BallochSonsFan]

42 minutes ago, virginton said:

Why do Brabco still control the club itself, rather than trying to hive off the land, charging the club a peppercorn rent to use it and not have to deal with running a (from their perspective) daft wee Scottish football club? Surely it would make more sense for them to sit it out as landlords and come back with a new development plan a few years down the line?

The reason I ask is that this is the exit plan currently set up for the sweetie company that owns Morton, now that the rest of the Rae family want shot of the club. A fan ownership group is poised to take control of the club this summer - but the ground and its similarly tempting potential development land is to stay in the Rae family's hands and a minimal rent paid to use it by the club. Given the state that these clowns are leaving behind the scenes on their way out the door though, there is growing sentiment to reject the current terms and hound then into giving further concessions, such as a buy-back option. 

The parallels between the situations at the two clubs are significant enough to draw lessons/tactics from. Dumbarton's situation is almost certainly worse in that your owners' entire M.O. is property development, but I don't understand why they are staying put when our disinterested owners are leaving with what they want intact. The failure of Brabco's stadium move project meanwhile underlines the viability of Morton's fan ownership retaining/regaining control of the stadium land, as it is not the prime value asset that speculators think it is so long as you have a football club and other stakeholders to account for. 

There's no money in it.

There is planning permission (or at least there was) for a small development on part of the land. The land makes no money for Brabco if Dumbarton are tenants. There would be a minimal rent value in us hiring the ground. Theres the added complication of the so called golden shares that essentially try to protect the ground for the benefit of the club.

Brabco can sit back and do nothing. It isnt costing them anything. If nobody is willing to match their price then there's no compulsion to sell because they're not putting money into the club. Worst case scenario and the club folds? They go down the route of selling the land that includes the current ground and make whatever they can from it. Theres no urgency for them right now. The only thing that will realistically change that is friction within Brabco itself and a desire by some of the separate investors to cut their losses and realise whatever return they can.

[sonsanorak]

Sounds to me like brabco have made a poor investment.

When we sat through their proposals at the public meetings what I understood of it was that if they didn't get the housing at renton they couldn't fund the new ground. If they cant build a new ground then they cant leave the Rock and when the rock site is emptied, it needs a lot of remedial work to sell it on.

They're prospectors, not investors.

[The Moonster]

10 hours ago, virginton said:

Why do Brabco still control the club itself, rather than trying to hive off the land, charging the club a peppercorn rent to use it and not have to deal with running a (from their perspective) daft wee Scottish football club? Surely it would make more sense for them to sit it out as landlords and come back with a new development plan a few years down the line?

The reason I ask is that this is the exit plan currently set up for the sweetie company that owns Morton, now that the rest of the Rae family want shot of the club. A fan ownership group is poised to take control of the club this summer - but the ground and its similarly tempting potential development land is to stay in the Rae family's hands and a minimal rent paid to use it by the club. Given the state that these clowns are leaving behind the scenes on their way out the door though, there is growing sentiment to reject the current terms and hound then into giving further concessions, such as a buy-back option. 

The parallels between the situations at the two clubs are significant enough to draw lessons/tactics from. Dumbarton's situation is almost certainly worse in that your owners' entire M.O. is property development, but I don't understand why they are staying put when our disinterested owners are leaving with what they want intact. The failure of Brabco's stadium move project meanwhile underlines the viability of Morton's fan ownership retaining/regaining control of the stadium land, as it is not the prime value asset that speculators think it is so long as you have a football club and other stakeholders to account for. 

The Golden Share is the only reason I can see. Some Sons fans are worried it might not stand up in court but I don't think Brabco have the money to take us there and find out, or the will to do so right now.

[the snudge]

Hopefully the euro millions numbers come in. I'd buy those shits out in nae time. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

17 minutes ago, the snudge said:

Hopefully the euro millions numbers come in. I'd buy those shits out in nae time. 

Alternatively, keep your money and tell them you'll start a new club in a ground share if they don't fück off.

[Howlin' Wilf]

I understood that Chris Stainton was not involved in Brabco anymore, ditto Andy Hosie. The only two directors at Brabco are Ian Wilson and Peter John Steede. They appear to be in no hurry to do anything https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/controversial-dumbarton-fc-stadium-move-21985464?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

[BallochSonsFan]

48 minutes ago, Howlin' Wilf said:

I understood that Chris Stainton was not involved in Brabco anymore, ditto Andy Hosie. The only two directors at Brabco are Ian Wilson and Peter John Steede. They appear to be in no hurry to do anything https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/controversial-dumbarton-fc-stadium-move-21985464?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

Stainton certainly took a back seat when he was dealing with his own company's tax problems.

Don't think he sold up. If he didnt then he's still a shareholder and will still have a major say in what Brabco do. Andy Hosie can't have more than very limited involvement given his past.

[The Moonster]

3 minutes ago, BallochSonsFan said:

Andy Hosie can't* have more than very limited involvement given his past.

Shouldn't*

[O'Kelly Isley III]

It makes you wonder just who is the benefactor who is providing financial support to the club until the end of the season.

[vikingTON]

16 hours ago, BallochSonsFan said:

There's no money in it.

There is planning permission (or at least there was) for a small development on part of the land. The land makes no money for Brabco if Dumbarton are tenants. There would be a minimal rent value in us hiring the ground. Theres the added complication of the so called golden shares that essentially try to protect the ground for the benefit of the club.

Brabco can sit back and do nothing. It isnt costing them anything. If nobody is willing to match their price then there's no compulsion to sell because they're not putting money into the club. Worst case scenario and the club folds? They go down the route of selling the land that includes the current ground and make whatever they can from it. Theres no urgency for them right now. The only thing that will realistically change that is friction within Brabco itself and a desire by some of the separate investors to cut their losses and realise whatever return they can.

There's no money in actually running the football club either. If the land were separated then they might have a better chance of selling that to another speculator, instead of having control of a football club thrown in as well. Which applies as much to our situation as yours.

It's not the best route for the future of your club but I'm interested to follow whether they will try pushing this 'golden share' issue to provide a get-out. 

[Boghead ranter]

1 hour ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

It makes you wonder just who is the benefactor who is providing financial support to the club until the end of the season.

Me.

[FifeSons]

1 hour ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

It makes you wonder just who is the benefactor who is providing financial support to the club until the end of the season.

Rankine?

[The Moonster]

2 hours ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

It makes you wonder just who is the benefactor who is providing financial support to the club until the end of the season.

The only thing I wonder is why we need a benefactor to do that at all tbh. Over £200K in funds pumped into the club in the last 9 months and we've not paid any wages for about 6 of those.