Sons' sorrow

[David W]

5 hours ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

I see Forfar have done a bit of wheeling and dealing and added 3 experienced heads to their squd, one being Grant Anderson who I’d have taken in a heartbeat. A wide target man type would also probably be ideal for our hoofball.

We’ve heard f**k all about what Duffy’s plans are should the league restart. Will we just be sticking with the mostly ganting squad we have or will he be looking to add to it? Who knows.

I'd not be overly worried about any of those three signings for Forfar. Munro is a donkey and Scott was finished years ago playing in League 2.

[super-son]

I would be more concerned if we WERE signing players at the moment.

There is no chance we will be playing for at least another month yet and there is the possibility of not even being able to finish the season at all. There are still too many unknowns to be handing out contracts to players who we will not be able to furlough. 

I would hope that with this break in play, Duffy has maybe had a bit of time to do some thinking and come up with a plan of action for when we get the green light to start playing again. Although, it is Duffy we are talking about so I am not getting my hopes up too much.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

8 hours ago, super-son said:

 

I would hope that with this break in play, Duffy has maybe had a bit of time to do some thinking and come up with a plan of action for when we get the green light to start playing again. Although, it is Duffy we are talking about so I am not getting my hopes up too much.

This is kind of my point, we haven’t heard a peep from him for a long time, not one update on the playing side of things. All we’ve really had is that birthday caird pish from Steele.

I’m not expecting us to sign anyone right now FWIW, nor am I concerned by guys like Bobby Barr, it’s more the fact that other teams are actively trying to improve what they have and I have zero confidence that Duffy will be ready to pounce when things get the green light.

[optimistic]

I wouldn’t want us signing anyone either at the moment, I only meant the fact that with all the excitement of deadline day, feels like a boot in the stones that our league isn’t on, and we can’t contribute

[pleslie99]

I wouldnt be too worried that we havnt heard from JD or that we havnt signed anyone. With the league outcome still undecided it would be foolish to sign anyone without a bit of certainty. Also if JD is indeed on Furlough, along with the rest of the squad, hes not allowed to do any work for his employer hence why we probably haven't heard from him.

[Nowhereman]

4 hours ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

This is kind of my point, we haven’t heard a peep from him for a long time, not one update on the playing side of things. All we’ve really had is that birthday caird pish from Steele.

I’m not expecting us to sign anyone right now FWIW, nor am I concerned by guys like Bobby Barr, it’s more the fact that other teams are actively trying to improve what they have and I have zero confidence that Duffy will be ready to pounce when things get the green light.

Can't say I've seen much evidence of that. About the only movement has been Premier/ Championship sides recalling loans

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

Just now, Nowhereman said:

Can't say I've seen much evidence of that. About the only movement has been Premier/ Championship sides recalling loans

Forfar, who I’d consider direct rivals this season, and one of our main hopes for staying up, have made 4 signings.

[Nowhereman]

4 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

Forfar, who I’d consider direct rivals this season, and one of our main hopes for staying up, have made 4 signings.

If you look at their fans comments on here they don't seem too impressed with them though

[Howlin' Wilf]

On 02/02/2021 at 13:10, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

Forfar, who I’d consider direct rivals this season, and one of our main hopes for staying up, have made 4 signings.

Just had a look at their accounts. They were in a much better financial position than DFC at May 2019 (the most recent available comparison) and no overdraft. 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

Just had a look at their accounts. They were in a much better financial position than DFC at May 2019 (the most recent available comparison) and no overdraft. 

Indeed. Dumbarton would appear to be in a far more precarious financial position than most clubs, but more generally the four Angus clubs seem to be consistently well run. And I'd wager that their ownership situation will be less opaque.

[optimistic]

When do we think the tabloids will start to notice what’s happening at Dumbarton, regarding brabco, and our lack of financial help from them ?

[Jan Vojáček]

1 hour ago, optimistic said:

When do we think the tabloids will start to notice what’s happening at Dumbarton, regarding brabco, and our lack of financial help from them ?

Owners not putting money in to a lower league football club isn't news unfortunately. I doubt we're alone in that boat; even if our situation is particularly complex.

Good luck to anyone trying to get Brabco for comment either. They'll certainly need it.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

Owners not putting money in to a lower league football club isn't news unfortunately. I doubt we're alone in that boat; even if our situation is particularly complex.
Good luck to anyone trying to get Brabco for comment either. They'll certainly need it.

Your closing remark, and I don't doubt it, surely constitutes a story in itself. Dumbarton FC risks becoming like that ghost ship which was laid up for about three years in Aberdeen, the crew effectively abandoned by faraway owners who were unwilling to assume responsibility for their asset. Marie Celeste FC.... honestly, no need to thank me.

[BallochSonsFan]

4 hours ago, optimistic said:

When do we think the tabloids will start to notice what’s happening at Dumbarton, regarding brabco, and our lack of financial help from them ?

Never.

There's no story in lower league football from a national tabloid viewpoint. Local press? There should be if the local papers didnt have such an ambivalent view of the club. I know that individual journalists do a cracking job (Fraser's stuff is always a good read and so was Andy Galloway before him). I'd expect the story to only pique the big papers' interests if it became the likely obituary for the football club.

The Brabco issue is complicated. They're not putting money into the club and never were going to. This was always a land deal with the added complications of a football club attached. It was never about them investing in Dumbarton specifically or football in general. There are some serious issues within Brabco itself, or were when I was meeting with them. Brabco isnt really a thing beyond being an investment group. You have Stainton, Wilson, some City of London spivs and a couple of others. They are not a united group - Stainton has one view, Wilson another, the spivs a different view again and getting them all to agree is very difficult. Over the course of their tenure as owners, it's really been Stainton and Wilson who have been the public face of Brabco, occasionally to disastrous effect. They've been clear that they'll oppose any form of fundraising that dilutes their shareholding or puts pressure on them to invest further in the club. That really does limit what the club and the fans can do to raise money.

Brabco want out, but there doesnt seem to be a consensus on their exit price. Stainton has previously suggested that he'd stay to the bitter end to get what he thinks should be the return on investment. How much Brabco have spent and how much they expect to make back is a murky pool indeed. The club itself isnt work much. The current ground doesnt have a significant land value given the remedial work needed to allow house building and the likely objections to a significant development by Historic Scotland. The club itself isnt worth much. Its unclear how much Brabco spent to acquire the controlling interest but there hasnt been much invested in the club since the initial purchase. They've probably spent more money chasing their Youngs Farm project. There may well be a development at Youngs Farm in the future, but it remains to be seen exactly how far in the future that'll be and whether or not it'll include a football ground. Right now that doesnt look likely. The pandemic will do nothing to encourage a significant housebuilding development on the edge of Dumbarton at a time when unemployment is likely to be higher for a sustained period. The alternative would be to sell to somebody looking to invest in a football club. There was an interested party but it was probably as murky as the Youngs Farm development and seemed to rely on using Dumbarton as a fattening ranch to develop European kids to sell on to other teams. Brexit would make that kind of arrangement very difficult at our level - getting work permits for European players wouldn't be an easy proposition and selling them on would carry a similar problem. 

I think our big hope is that Brabco reach a crisis point internally. That they decide to cut their losses and sell. That causes a further problem in that they would sell to anybody who came along with the money and the new buyer may be worse than Brabco. To give them a shred of credit, they've never actually aggressively pursued a course of action that would be intentionally harmful to the club, even if their original plan was bunkum (I remember the conversation I had with an exasperated Gilbert well), their 2nd plan was just as bad and even the later incarnation of the Youngs Farm move seemed to carry significant risks. The important thing is to ensure that the trust is in a position to be a player when we eventually reach the end game. I think it was heading in the right direction and that it has a significant part to play in things somewhere along the line. Right now all the club board can really do is firefight and look for small wins. Things were heading in the right direction in those regards too until we lost Alan Findlay from the board and the work he was trying to start ran into a few difficulties, not least of which has been the almost year long shutdown of public events. The combination of the club and trust boards have a huge job ahead of them but we've got some talented people involved who will give it absolutely everything to try and find enough of those achievable wins that they start to make a difference.

When Covid is over then assuming there's a club to return to (and I believe that there will be, although what state it'll be in is anybody's guess) we've got some very big challenges ahead. I'm confident that we can work towards improving things in the short term whilst keeping the longer term issue of club ownership firmly in focus.

Edited February 6, 2021 by BallochSonsFan

[Turnberry Fields Forever]

Never.
There's no story in lower league football from a national tabloid viewpoint. Local press? There should be if the local papers didnt have such an ambivalent view of the club. I know that individual journalists do a cracking job (Fraser's stuff is always a good read and so was Andy Galloway before him). I'd expect the story to only pique the big papers' interests if it became the likely obituary for the football club.
The Brabco issue is complicated. They're not putting money into the club and never were going to. This was always a land deal with the added complications of a football club attached. It was never about them investing in Dumbarton specifically or football in general. There are some serious issues within Brabco itself, or were when I was meeting with them. Brabco isnt really a thing beyond being an investment group. You have Stainton, Wilson, some City of London spivs and a couple of others. They are not a united group - Stainton has one view, Wilson another, the spivs a different view again and getting them all to agree is very difficult. Over the course of their tenure as owners, it's really been Stainton and Wilson who have been the public face of Brabco, occasionally to disastrous effect. They've been clear that they'll oppose any form of fundraising that dilutes their shareholding or puts pressure on them to invest further in the club. That really does limit what the club and the fans can do to raise money.
Brabco want out, but there doesnt seem to be a consensus on their exit price. Stainton has previously suggested that he'd stay to the bitter end to get what he thinks should be the return on investment. How much Brabco have spent and how much they expect to make back is a murky pool indeed. The club itself isnt work much. The current ground doesnt have a significant land value given the remedial work needed to allow house building and the likely objections to a significant development by Historic Scotland. The club itself isnt worth much. Its unclear how much Brabco spent to acquire the controlling interest but there hasnt been much invested in the club since the initial purchase. They've probably spent more money chasing their Youngs Farm project. There may well be a development at Youngs Farm in the future, but it remains to be seen exactly how far in the future that'll be and whether or not it'll include a football ground. Right now that doesnt look likely. The pandemic will do nothing to encourage a significant housebuilding development on the edge of Dumbarton at a time when unemployment is likely to be higher for a sustained period. The alternative would be to sell to somebody looking to invest in a football club. There was an interested party but it was probably as murky as the Youngs Farm development and seemed to rely on using Dumbarton as a fattening ranch to develop European kids to sell on to other teams. Brexit would make that kind of arrangement very difficult at our level - getting work permits for European players wouldn't be an easy proposition and selling them on would carry a similar problem. 
I think our big hope is that Brabco reach a crisis point internally. That they decide to cut their losses and sell. That causes a further problem in that they would sell to anybody who came along with the money and the new buyer may be worse than Brabco. To give them a shred of credit, they've never actually aggressively pursued a course of action that would be intentionally harmful to the club, even if their original plan was bunkum (I remember the conversation I had with an exasperated Gilbert well), their 2nd plan was just as bad and even the later incarnation of the Youngs Farm move seemed to carry significant risks. The important thing is to ensure that the trust is in a position to be a player when we eventually reach the end game. I think it was heading in the right direction and that it has a significant part to play in things somewhere along the line. Right now all the club board can really do is firefight and look for small wins. Things were heading in the right direction in those regards too until we lost Alan Findlay from the board and the work he was trying to start ran into a few difficulties, not least of which has been the almost year long shutdown of public events. The combination of the club and trust boards have a huge job ahead of them but we've got some talented people involved who will give it absolutely everything to try and find enough of those achievable wins that they start to make a difference.
When Covid is over then assuming there's a club to return to (and I believe that there will be, although what state it'll be in is anybody's guess) we've got some very big challenges ahead. I'm confident that we can work towards improving things in the short term whilst keeping the longer term issue of club ownership firmly in focus.

Very interesting stuff. If Brabco became involved because of a relocation project which is now dead then that suggests to me that their interests would now be best served by the club itself failing.

[super-son]

The problem that Brabco have is that I would imagine it's quite difficult for them to force us into folding as a club. I'm not sure they have any cards to play that would have a negative impact on our financial state.

Ironically if they had actually invested/loaned us some money like most owners they could probably have called in their loans and made us fold that way.

[BallochSonsFan]

54 minutes ago, Turnberry Fields Forever said:

13 hours ago, BallochSonsFan said:

Never.
There's no story in lower league football from a national tabloid viewpoint. Local press? There should be if the local papers didnt have such an ambivalent view of the club. I know that individual journalists do a cracking job (Fraser's stuff is always a good read and so was Andy Galloway before him). I'd expect the story to only pique the big papers' interests if it became the likely obituary for the football club.
The Brabco issue is complicated. They're not putting money into the club and never were going to. This was always a land deal with the added complications of a football club attached. It was never about them investing in Dumbarton specifically or football in general. There are some serious issues within Brabco itself, or were when I was meeting with them. Brabco isnt really a thing beyond being an investment group. You have Stainton, Wilson, some City of London spivs and a couple of others. They are not a united group - Stainton has one view, Wilson another, the spivs a different view again and getting them all to agree is very difficult. Over the course of their tenure as owners, it's really been Stainton and Wilson who have been the public face of Brabco, occasionally to disastrous effect. They've been clear that they'll oppose any form of fundraising that dilutes their shareholding or puts pressure on them to invest further in the club. That really does limit what the club and the fans can do to raise money.
Brabco want out, but there doesnt seem to be a consensus on their exit price. Stainton has previously suggested that he'd stay to the bitter end to get what he thinks should be the return on investment. How much Brabco have spent and how much they expect to make back is a murky pool indeed. The club itself isnt work much. The current ground doesnt have a significant land value given the remedial work needed to allow house building and the likely objections to a significant development by Historic Scotland. The club itself isnt worth much. Its unclear how much Brabco spent to acquire the controlling interest but there hasnt been much invested in the club since the initial purchase. They've probably spent more money chasing their Youngs Farm project. There may well be a development at Youngs Farm in the future, but it remains to be seen exactly how far in the future that'll be and whether or not it'll include a football ground. Right now that doesnt look likely. The pandemic will do nothing to encourage a significant housebuilding development on the edge of Dumbarton at a time when unemployment is likely to be higher for a sustained period. The alternative would be to sell to somebody looking to invest in a football club. There was an interested party but it was probably as murky as the Youngs Farm development and seemed to rely on using Dumbarton as a fattening ranch to develop European kids to sell on to other teams. Brexit would make that kind of arrangement very difficult at our level - getting work permits for European players wouldn't be an easy proposition and selling them on would carry a similar problem. 
I think our big hope is that Brabco reach a crisis point internally. That they decide to cut their losses and sell. That causes a further problem in that they would sell to anybody who came along with the money and the new buyer may be worse than Brabco. To give them a shred of credit, they've never actually aggressively pursued a course of action that would be intentionally harmful to the club, even if their original plan was bunkum (I remember the conversation I had with an exasperated Gilbert well), their 2nd plan was just as bad and even the later incarnation of the Youngs Farm move seemed to carry significant risks. The important thing is to ensure that the trust is in a position to be a player when we eventually reach the end game. I think it was heading in the right direction and that it has a significant part to play in things somewhere along the line. Right now all the club board can really do is firefight and look for small wins. Things were heading in the right direction in those regards too until we lost Alan Findlay from the board and the work he was trying to start ran into a few difficulties, not least of which has been the almost year long shutdown of public events. The combination of the club and trust boards have a huge job ahead of them but we've got some talented people involved who will give it absolutely everything to try and find enough of those achievable wins that they start to make a difference.
When Covid is over then assuming there's a club to return to (and I believe that there will be, although what state it'll be in is anybody's guess) we've got some very big challenges ahead. I'm confident that we can work towards improving things in the short term whilst keeping the longer term issue of club ownership firmly in focus.

Very interesting stuff. If Brabco became involved because of a relocation project which is now dead then that suggests to me that their interests would now be best served by the club itself failing.

There isn't enough money for them in the club folding. The current ground isn't worth a lot for housing by the time you adjust for clean up costs. It's not going to be Brabco's preferred option as it doesn't give them the return they want. That's not to say that they'd be heartbroken if it happened.

[cremola foam]

13 hours ago, BallochSonsFan said:

Never.

There's no story in lower league football from a national tabloid viewpoint. Local press? There should be if the local papers didnt have such an ambivalent view of the club. I know that individual journalists do a cracking job (Fraser's stuff is always a good read and so was Andy Galloway before him). I'd expect the story to only pique the big papers' interests if it became the likely obituary for the football club.

The Brabco issue is complicated. They're not putting money into the club and never were going to. This was always a land deal with the added complications of a football club attached. It was never about them investing in Dumbarton specifically or football in general. There are some serious issues within Brabco itself, or were when I was meeting with them. Brabco isnt really a thing beyond being an investment group. You have Stainton, Wilson, some City of London spivs and a couple of others. They are not a united group - Stainton has one view, Wilson another, the spivs a different view again and getting them all to agree is very difficult. Over the course of their tenure as owners, it's really been Stainton and Wilson who have been the public face of Brabco, occasionally to disastrous effect. They've been clear that they'll oppose any form of fundraising that dilutes their shareholding or puts pressure on them to invest further in the club. That really does limit what the club and the fans can do to raise money.

Brabco want out, but there doesnt seem to be a consensus on their exit price. Stainton has previously suggested that he'd stay to the bitter end to get what he thinks should be the return on investment. How much Brabco have spent and how much they expect to make back is a murky pool indeed. The club itself isnt work much. The current ground doesnt have a significant land value given the remedial work needed to allow house building and the likely objections to a significant development by Historic Scotland. The club itself isnt worth much. Its unclear how much Brabco spent to acquire the controlling interest but there hasnt been much invested in the club since the initial purchase. They've probably spent more money chasing their Youngs Farm project. There may well be a development at Youngs Farm in the future, but it remains to be seen exactly how far in the future that'll be and whether or not it'll include a football ground. Right now that doesnt look likely. The pandemic will do nothing to encourage a significant housebuilding development on the edge of Dumbarton at a time when unemployment is likely to be higher for a sustained period. The alternative would be to sell to somebody looking to invest in a football club. There was an interested party but it was probably as murky as the Youngs Farm development and seemed to rely on using Dumbarton as a fattening ranch to develop European kids to sell on to other teams. Brexit would make that kind of arrangement very difficult at our level - getting work permits for European players wouldn't be an easy proposition and selling them on would carry a similar problem. 

I think our big hope is that Brabco reach a crisis point internally. That they decide to cut their losses and sell. That causes a further problem in that they would sell to anybody who came along with the money and the new buyer may be worse than Brabco. To give them a shred of credit, they've never actually aggressively pursued a course of action that would be intentionally harmful to the club, even if their original plan was bunkum (I remember the conversation I had with an exasperated Gilbert well), their 2nd plan was just as bad and even the later incarnation of the Youngs Farm move seemed to carry significant risks. The important thing is to ensure that the trust is in a position to be a player when we eventually reach the end game. I think it was heading in the right direction and that it has a significant part to play in things somewhere along the line. Right now all the club board can really do is firefight and look for small wins. Things were heading in the right direction in those regards too until we lost Alan Findlay from the board and the work he was trying to start ran into a few difficulties, not least of which has been the almost year long shutdown of public events. The combination of the club and trust boards have a huge job ahead of them but we've got some talented people involved who will give it absolutely everything to try and find enough of those achievable wins that they start to make a difference.

When Covid is over then assuming there's a club to return to (and I believe that there will be, although what state it'll be in is anybody's guess) we've got some very big challenges ahead. I'm confident that we can work towards improving things in the short term whilst keeping the longer term issue of club ownership firmly in focus.

Thanks for that, very clear. Daft questionfrom me. Ballpark figure Brabco might accept, are we talking millions, hundreds of thousands or what?

[The Moonster]

57 minutes ago, BallochSonsFan said:

There isn't enough money for them in the club folding. The current ground isn't worth a lot for housing by the time you adjust for clean up costs. It's not going to be Brabco's preferred option as it doesn't give them the return they want. That's not to say that they'd be heartbroken if it happened.

What's in it for them now at all then? If the lands fucked, the clubs worth nothing and they can't relocate. Holding onto us makes no sense in a business sense unless you're looking to increase the value of the club before selling, which they aren't. 

If that really is the state of play for Brabco then I'd be expecting them to sell to the highest bidder pronto.

[BallochSonsFan]

56 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

What's in it for them now at all then? If the lands fucked, the clubs worth nothing and they can't relocate. Holding onto us makes no sense in a business sense unless you're looking to increase the value of the club before selling, which they aren't. 

If that really is the state of play for Brabco then I'd be expecting them to sell to the highest bidder pronto.

They've spent their money. It shouldn't be costing them much on an ongoing basis as they're not putting money into the club and they've been clear that they'd oppose any fundraising that requires them to buy more shares to maintain their shareholding percentage. They've got a couple of creditors to deal with but beyond that there shouldn't be a lot of costs associated with Brabco. It depends on how much more they want to spend chasing Youngs Farm. If there comes a point where somebody on Brabco's side needs the money then we'll see things change dramatically. If not? There is no pressing need for them to sell right now. They can hold their shares without worrying that they're losing value. The current ground has a certain value that they could probably achieve if we went belly up. That'll be their exit plan if they can't find a buyer or make Youngs Farm work.

Edited February 7, 2021 by BallochSonsFan