Sons' sorrow

[distresseduke]

It's obviously going to be hard for Dumbarton to keep up their best part time team tag when they have a much bigger club in Ayr in the division...looking like this could be their season but we've thought that before the murrays miracles survived...if not Dumbarton then who? Can't see st mirren or scumvermine going down

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

It's obviously going to be hard for Dumbarton to keep up their best part time team tag when they have a much bigger club in Ayr in the division...looking like this could be their season but we've thought that before the murrays miracles survived...if not Dumbarton then who? Can't see st mirren or scumvermine going down

Ayr may have a bigger support but you're kidding yourself on if you think they have a hugely bigger budget than ours. They are also part-time. Fair enough the likes of Harkins and Balatoni will be earning a right good wedge, the rest of the squad will be similar to ours in terms of wages.

Our players are handsomely paid and our budget is nowhere near as low as folk/the manager make out. Barr, Thomson x2, Harvie, Martin, Brown, Fleming, Stevo and Stanton don't come cheap.

[aftershocker]

He never I sit right up from the tunnel.

I noticed him applauding them when he took a corner in front of them. I assume they had applauded him first

[Honest_Man#1]

Is there a way to find out the 50/50 draw numbers from the game? Forgot they'd given me a ticket with the parking.

[Jan Vojáček]

Is there a way to find out the 50/50 draw numbers from the game? Forgot they'd given me a ticket with the parking.

You could tweet the club, but normally it goes on the website if it's not claimed - so I'd assume someone won it yesterday.

[Howlin' Wilf]

I don't know about anyone else but I'm  pretty scunnered with this division. The 5 year stay has been good in parts and it has been a bit of an adventure. In the medium term though, it would be nice to support a winning team rather than be involved in an ongoing heroic struggle. Maybe we should be looking at the management team and squad we have and whilst still trying our best to stay in the Championship, have one eye on next season. We will be relegated sooner or later and when we are it should be with the thought that we do an Alloa rather than a Cowden. Aitken has a good track record at League One level. It might  therefore be a bit hasty to sack him. My question earlier about who would replace him is very relevant. The Cowden fans latterly detested Jimmy Nichol but on his leaving they ended up with Colin Nish. Where are they now?

Alloa did well to attract Jack Ross. Their gamble of sacking Danny Lennon only started paying off this season once Jack Ross had been given a vote of confidence to continue after relegation. He's left them in decent fettle for an attempt at the League One title.

I have a feeling that Aitken, despite current events, is more of a Ross than a Nish.

My fear is that sacking Aitken might mollify the support in the short term. However, if it were just to replace him with AN Other then I wonder whether the seemingly inevitable outcome of this season would be avoided......

 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

3 hours ago, Howlin' Wilf said:

I don't know about anyone else but I'm  pretty scunnered with this division. The 5 year stay has been good in parts and it has been a bit of an adventure. In the medium term though, it would be nice to support a winning team rather than be involved in an ongoing heroic struggle. Maybe we should be looking at the management team and squad we have and whilst still trying our best to stay in the Championship, have one eye on next season. We will be relegated sooner or later and when we are it should be with the thought that we do an Alloa rather than a Cowden. Aitken has a good track record at League One level. It might  therefore be a bit hasty to sack him. My question earlier about who would replace him is very relevant. The Cowden fans latterly detested Jimmy Nichol but on his leaving they ended up with Colin Nish. Where are they now?

Alloa did well to attract Jack Ross. Their gamble of sacking Danny Lennon only started paying off this season once Jack Ross had been given a vote of confidence to continue after relegation. He's left them in decent fettle for an attempt at the League One title.

I have a feeling that Aitken, despite current events, is more of a Ross than a Nish.

My fear is that sacking Aitken might mollify the support in the short term. However, if it were just to replace him with AN Other then I wonder whether the seemingly inevitable outcome of this season would be avoided......

 

It's a point I made some time ago but the posters' consensus then was that you want your team to be performing at the highest level possible.  Fair enough, but when you are barely competing, never mind performing and entertaining, then only a masochist would wish to repeatedly wish to stoically sit thro the likes of yesterday.

And as I've already also posted, the achievements in terms of results and league standing in the last five seasons have been nothing short of astonishing, given the very odd system of governance which exists at DFC.  In essence, it seems that all football business is conducted and budgeted by local Directors required to operate with minimal input in any shape or form from the club's majority shareholders, Brabco.  We should never overlook this as it ultimately affects everything on the playing side.

And that will be Brabco, the group of business individuals with no known track record of ever having delivered the sort of project they now aspire to here in Dumbarton.  They want a return on their investment but the numbers and logistics are semi-fantastic, and when reality intrudes that could have very serious ramifications indeed for the future of Dumbarton FC;I believe that situation is potentially much more troubling than a threat of relegation following a miserable season. 

As for Alloa, they have a very confident and apparently financially well-upholstered Chairman in Mike Mulraney, so other than the  clubs' relative history, status and support base I don't see any great comparison.  In fact, in view of what I've described above I'd be hard-pressed to think of any valid comparison in Scottish football right now.

 

Edited October 16, 2016 by O'Kelly Isley III

[eez-eh]

4 hours ago, Turnberry Fields Forever said:

In what looks increasingly like deliciously ironic timing, I understand that Brabco's plan for a new stadium on the Renton Road will be  presented next month to the Planning Committee of WDC.

The football side is going thro the mill, crowds are plummeting but it's heartening to know that the future is assured.

 

4 hours ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

It's normally about November that we start getting the new stadium chat. I really did miss it last season. Perhaps it's the thing that will finally kick our season into life. What better way to celebrate relegation than with plans for a 4000 capacity stadium - where we only get 1000 at first, and the rest built in installments (sounds similar...) - in the middle of nowhere on a flood plain.

Cannot wait.

What's this about a new stadium? I know it gets a bit of stick sometimes for being one stand but it's pretty new and seems to meet your needs. Surely there's no need for a new stadium?

[itzdrk]

3 hours ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

It's a point I made some time ago but the posters' consensus then was that you want your team to be performing at the highest level possible.  Fair enough, but when you are barely competing, never mind performing and entertaining, then only a masochist would wish to repeatedly wish to stoically sit thro the likes of yesterday.

And as I've already also posted, the achievements in terms of results and league standing in the last five seasons have been nothing short of astonishing, given the very odd system of governance which exists at DFC.  In essence, it seems that all football business is conducted and budgeted by local Directors required to operate with minimal input in any shape or form from the club's majority shareholders, Brabco.  We should never overlook this as it ultimately affects everything on the playing side.

And that will be Brabco, the group of business individuals with no known track record of ever having delivered the sort of project they now aspire to here in Dumbarton.  They want a return on their investment but the numbers and logistics are semi-fantastic, and when reality intrudes that could have very serious ramifications indeed for the future of Dumbarton FC;I believe the situation is potentially much more troubling than a threat of relegation following a miserable season. 

As for Alloa, they have a very confident and apparently financially well-upholstered Chairman in Mike Mulraney, so other than the  clubs' relative history, status and support base I don't see any great comparison.  In fact, in view of what I've described above I'd be hard-pressed to think of any valid comparison in Scottish football right now.

 

Kilmarnock FC. 

Eta: Twitter seems to agree. 

Edited October 16, 2016 by itzdrk

[BallochSonsFan]

I'm not sure that relegation, and the promise of a Dumbarton side competing at the top of the 3rd tier, would attract fans to the club. We'd all like to see more entertaining football with more goals, more shots on goal and an end to our horrific away run. Would that be enough to boost crowds, or at least to protect what we have? I'm not sure. We may well find out at the end of this season, but for me Dumbarton have a fan base right now that will be plus or minus about 50-75 fans no matter what league we play in. Relegation won't see that change. It's simply a reflection of how little the local population cares for the club and how loathe they are to actually get out and support the Sons.

Between Dumbarton, the Vale of Leven, Helensburgh and the surrounding areas we should be able to do better than around 600 fans on a good day. Looking at West Dunbartonshire and Helensburgh we've got a catchment area in excess of 105,000 people. We're getting somewhere in the region of 0.5% of the local population along on a match day. It does us no favours to be 20 miles or so from both Old Firm clubs, but we've always had that problem. Clydebank doesnt have a senior team any more. Their junior team arent exactly on fire in recent seasons and the Vale juniors aren't the draw that some of the Glasgow or Ayrshire teams are. Dumbarton are the only local football team for a large number of people and yet the number of folk who care enough to actually go to a game is minuscule.

Playing in the 2nd tier for a 5th consecutive season hasn't sparked interest amongst the local population and I doubt whether being more successful at a lower level will either. It'll make things more interesting for the folk who would go to games anyway but like most small clubs in Scotland we're stumbling towards a serious issue with our crowds. The sad fact is that clubs like Dumbarton aren't replacing fans with kids and families at a high enough rate to even keep crowds stable, never mind actually growing them. Where will the next generation of Sons fans come from?

[Jan Vojáček]

1 hour ago, BallochSonsFan said:

I'm not sure that relegation, and the promise of a Dumbarton side competing at the top of the 3rd tier, would attract fans to the club. We'd all like to see more entertaining football with more goals, more shots on goal and an end to our horrific away run. Would that be enough to boost crowds, or at least to protect what we have? I'm not sure. We may well find out at the end of this season, but for me Dumbarton have a fan base right now that will be plus or minus about 50-75 fans no matter what league we play in. Relegation won't see that change. It's simply a reflection of how little the local population cares for the club and how loathe they are to actually get out and support the Sons.

Between Dumbarton, the Vale of Leven, Helensburgh and the surrounding areas we should be able to do better than around 600 fans on a good day. Looking at West Dunbartonshire and Helensburgh we've got a catchment area in excess of 105,000 people. We're getting somewhere in the region of 0.5% of the local population along on a match day. It does us no favours to be 20 miles or so from both Old Firm clubs, but we've always had that problem. Clydebank doesnt have a senior team any more. Their junior team arent exactly on fire in recent seasons and the Vale juniors aren't the draw that some of the Glasgow or Ayrshire teams are. Dumbarton are the only local football team for a large number of people and yet the number of folk who care enough to actually go to a game is minuscule.

Playing in the 2nd tier for a 5th consecutive season hasn't sparked interest amongst the local population and I doubt whether being more successful at a lower level will either. It'll make things more interesting for the folk who would go to games anyway but like most small clubs in Scotland we're stumbling towards a serious issue with our crowds. The sad fact is that clubs like Dumbarton aren't replacing fans with kids and families at a high enough rate to even keep crowds stable, never mind actually growing them. Where will the next generation of Sons fans come from?

I'm not sure. People always like the jump on the bandwagon of a winning team, not one slogging it out at the wrong end of the table every week. I'd guess (although I may be well off here) that our average home attendances in 2008/09 and 2011/12 were higher than they have been this season. If you remember back to the 6-0 Elgin game in April 2009 they opened the away end for home fans and the attendance was about 1400. The week before that we had over 900 hundred against Forfar for 'Walk to the Rock Day' of which I'd say at least 800 were home fans!

Now obviously that's slightly different as we were challenging for the league title, and early attendances were probably about 500-600, but it proves that people will come out and show an interest in a winning side. They'll just gradually drift off after that. At the moment (and I doubt I'm alone here) I struggle to find the motivation to go to away games, and I'm not waking up on a Saturday morning with that buzz to see us play - in fact I haven't felt that since early last season, and that died fairly swiftly. It's not as if we are playing the most incredible sides up here. A trip to Stark's or Cappielow is far less appealing to me than a trip to the Glebe or Cliftonhill.

It's almost as if the novelty has worn off, and now we're spending every season nervously looking downwards, working out the minimum number of points we think we need to survive - and that's really no fun.

I agree with Wilf on "being scunnered with the division", but I think - come the end of his contract - Aitken has to move on unless he pulls off a minor miracle. Not a matter of being sacked (assuming he hasn't already been, or walked away) but a case of "your contract is up, thanks for your efforts, all the best in your next role". Fresh start needed as things have been the definition of stale all this year.

^^^^Glory hunter who wants to thrash diddy teams whilst standing at the side of their fantastic stadiums. 

[Cruyff14]

Even under McCabe, we were filling 2 buses to away games. A number of factors, including cost contributed to that, but I much preferred those days. 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

3 hours ago, BallochSonsFan said:

I'm not sure that relegation, and the promise of a Dumbarton side competing at the top of the 3rd tier, would attract fans to the club. We'd all like to see more entertaining football with more goals, more shots on goal and an end to our horrific away run. Would that be enough to boost crowds, or at least to protect what we have? I'm not sure. We may well find out at the end of this season, but for me Dumbarton have a fan base right now that will be plus or minus about 50-75 fans no matter what league we play in. Relegation won't see that change. It's simply a reflection of how little the local population cares for the club and how loathe they are to actually get out and support the Sons.

Between Dumbarton, the Vale of Leven, Helensburgh and the surrounding areas we should be able to do better than around 600 fans on a good day. Looking at West Dunbartonshire and Helensburgh we've got a catchment area in excess of 105,000 people. We're getting somewhere in the region of 0.5% of the local population along on a match day. It does us no favours to be 20 miles or so from both Old Firm clubs, but we've always had that problem. Clydebank doesnt have a senior team any more. Their junior team arent exactly on fire in recent seasons and the Vale juniors aren't the draw that some of the Glasgow or Ayrshire teams are. Dumbarton are the only local football team for a large number of people and yet the number of folk who care enough to actually go to a game is minuscule.

Playing in the 2nd tier for a 5th consecutive season hasn't sparked interest amongst the local population and I doubt whether being more successful at a lower level will either. It'll make things more interesting for the folk who would go to games anyway but like most small clubs in Scotland we're stumbling towards a serious issue with our crowds. The sad fact is that clubs like Dumbarton aren't replacing fans with kids and families at a high enough rate to even keep crowds stable, never mind actually growing them. Where will the next generation of Sons fans come from?

There's a host of reasons why our support is diminishing (seeing as how Nowhereman is splitting hairs...), but the main one is probably economic.  This area rates very poorly in the table of local authorities for employment and income and following the Sons has become the pursuit of the committed only - the passing trade has gone, probably forever.

Another point to note is the relationship between the public and the club (as opposed to the team itself).  I've long ago formed the opinion that we are not a friendly club and occasional comments by visitors and hospitality guests bears this out; at times it's almost as if the public is a necessary inconvenience.  Reputation-wise, I don't think we score well either in the local community in general and it won't be the first time that a parent has approached me concerning the latest convulsion in the youth set-up at DFC.  We just seem to be in a permanent state of angst.

I've already gone over the Brabco situation and the more I think about that I fear for it.  There is no logical reason for us to move anywhere - indeed the diminishing home support only reinforces this - and whilst there are undoubtedly maintenance issues around the current stadium this whole concept looks increasingly flawed.

Bizarre perhaps to suggest it, but perhaps only relegation will bring some sanity to bear in terms of the ground issue, entry prices and most importantly, the greedy cash demands of many mediocre Scottish footballers and their agents.

That last point is crucial too; the public has increasingly seen thro the' kiss-the-badge-then f***-off' shit and are equally fed-up of the annual scrabbling around to even put a team on the park.  Another reason why only the anoraks like us who post on here are left.  

Edited October 17, 2016 by O'Kelly Isley III

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

There's a host of reasons why our support is diminishing (seeing as how Nowhereman is splitting hairs...), but the main one is probably economic.  This area rates very poorly in the table of local authorities for employment and income and following the Sons has become the pursuit of the committed only - the passing trade has gone, probably forever.

Another point to note is the relationship between the public and the club (as opposed to the team itself).  I've long ago formed the opinion that we are not a friendly club and occasional comments by visitors and hospitality guests bears this out; at times it's almost as if the public is a necessary inconvenience.  Reputation-wise, I don't think we score well either in the local community in general and it won't be the first time that a parent has approached me concerning the latest convulsion in the youth set-up at DFC.  We just seem to be in a permanent state of angst.

I've already gone over the Brabco situation and the more I think about that I fear for it.  There is no logical reason for us to move anywhere - indeed the diminishing home support only reinforces this - and whilst there are undoubtedly maintenance issues around the current stadium this whole concept looks increasingly flawed.

Bizarre perhaps to suggest it, but perhaps only relegation will bring some sanity to bear in terms of the ground issue, entry prices and most importantly, the greedy cash demands of many mediocre Scottish footballers and their agents.

That last point is crucial too; the public has increasingly seen thro the' kiss-the-badge-then f***-off' shit and are equally fed-up of the annual scrabbling around to even put a team on the park.  Another reason why only the anoraks like us who post on here are left.  

Absolutely bang on.

The amount these absolute pretenders earn is frightening. I absolutely dread to think what Stevenson is on, I reckon it would seriously shock some people.

[Nowhereman]

What is it about fans and rose tinted spectacles when they reflect on crowds of days gone by.  Apart from a brief period in the 1970's Dumbarton's crowds have never been great. Only a few years after our venture in the old first division in the mid seventies our crowds were back to an average of about 1000. And that was when we were challenging at the top of the second tier for promotion to the premier division. As to more recent history and in particular for Sonsteam of 08 our average attendance in 2008/09 was 722 and in 2011/12 was 660. So far this season it is 1189. Since 2001 our average attendance has only exceeded 1000 on three occasions, the last two seasons being two of those three. And our attendances in the last days of Boghead were much poorer with three and four hundred being a regular occurance. Attendances are not plummeting or diminishing and that's not splitting hairs.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

30 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

What is it about fans and rose tinted spectacles when they reflect on crowds of days gone by.  Apart from a brief period in the 1970's Dumbarton's crowds have never been great. Only a few years after our venture in the old first division in the mid seventies our crowds were back to an average of about 1000. And that was when we were challenging at the top of the second tier for promotion to the premier division. As to more recent history and in particular for Sonsteam of 08 our average attendance in 2008/09 was 722 and in 2011/12 was 660. So far this season it is 1189. Since 2001 our average attendance has only exceeded 1000 on three occasions, the last two seasons being two of those three. And our attendances in the last days of Boghead were much poorer with three and four hundred being a regular occurance. Attendances are not plummeting or diminishing and that's not splitting hairs.

The last days at Boghead saw fans watching matches in a run-down dump with precious little by way of facilities.  And they coincided with playing in the bottom division of Scottish football, a combination hardly conducive to good crowds.

No-one is wearing rose-tinted specs, but days gone by are helpful in comparing just how poor the value for money is in 2016.  And banging on about average attendances has got to take account of visiting supporters in order to avoid skewing the picture; in that respect our home support is almost down to the bones of its arse right now.

Tell you what, ask our Community Director what the walk-up numbers actually paying cash at the Home End have been for the last two home games - I don't know but I'd be astonished if they were in excess of 200.  And as I've alluded to above, there are firm reasons for that.

Edited October 17, 2016 by O'Kelly Isley III

[Jan Vojáček]

36 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

What is it about fans and rose tinted spectacles when they reflect on crowds of days gone by.  Apart from a brief period in the 1970's Dumbarton's crowds have never been great. Only a few years after our venture in the old first division in the mid seventies our crowds were back to an average of about 1000. And that was when we were challenging at the top of the second tier for promotion to the premier division. As to more recent history and in particular for Sonsteam of 08 our average attendance in 2008/09 was 722 and in 2011/12 was 660. So far this season it is 1189. Since 2001 our average attendance has only exceeded 1000 on three occasions, the last two seasons being two of those three. And our attendances in the last days of Boghead were much poorer with three and four hundred being a regular occurance. Attendances are not plummeting or diminishing and that's not splitting hairs.

2008/09 being 722 in a League with teams like Elgin, Berwick and Annan in it who bring about 49 fans between is not too bad at all I'd say. To gain a properly representative picture you'd really need a home attendance only figure. I certainly don't see a massive change in the home numbers (apart from when we play Rangers when I see plenty of new faces...) in fact the people who sit around me are (by and large) the same guys who I sat with 08/09 - with the exception of one guy who gave up his ST this year.

Statistically I could well be wrong, but I'd be fascinated to see the average home end attendances from the past few years. I'd guess that they haven't grown by much at all.

[Howlin' Wilf]

45 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

What is it about fans and rose tinted spectacles when they reflect on crowds of days gone by.  Apart from a brief period in the 1970's Dumbarton's crowds have never been great. Only a few years after our venture in the old first division in the mid seventies our crowds were back to an average of about 1000. And that was when we were challenging at the top of the second tier for promotion to the premier division. As to more recent history and in particular for Sonsteam of 08 our average attendance in 2008/09 was 722 and in 2011/12 was 660. So far this season it is 1189. Since 2001 our average attendance has only exceeded 1000 on three occasions, the last two seasons being two of those three. And our attendances in the last days of Boghead were much poorer with three and four hundred being a regular occurance. Attendances are not plummeting or diminishing and that's not splitting hairs.

Your memory is playing tricks Nowhereman. in 1976 our average was still a multiple of 1000 perhaps 2-3 times that. In1976 we ran, if I remember correctly, 17 buses from Dumbarton for the cup semi as well as many going by train or car. Three buses ran from Helensburgh. The quarter final against Killie at Boghead attracted around 8,000 - with around 5,000 supporting the home team. The real dwindle in numbers started around 1979.

[cedrick1]

Everything about us at moment is a concern reading into last few days of posts.

crowds poor away from home and generally down at  home with around 500 inc season tickets being about the norm.

performances have been generally poor since the start of the season in the cups and no encouragement. Squad is thin on ground numbers wise and even more so in eras of quality.

stevie  as others have said seems to struggle with decision making mainly to do with changes.

ive always supported that we should strive to play at highest level possible but I wonder just where this wil be come May.

one can only assume st mirren will splash out come January and we will still have same squad with perhaps the odd loaned change.

all a bit doom and gloom so will need a win on Saturday to boost spirits. I'll trudge along hoping for the best.

 

 

[Nowhereman]

2 hours ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

The last days at Boghead saw fans watching matches in a run-down dump with precious little by way of facilities.  And they coincided with playing in the bottom division of Scottish football, a combination hardly conducive to good crowds.

No-one is wearing rose-tinted specs, but days gone by are helpful in comparing just how poor the value for money is in 2016.  And banging on about average attendances has got to take account of visiting supporters in order to avoid skewing the picture; in that respect our home support is almost down to the bones of its arse right now.

Tell you what, ask our Community Director what the walk-up numbers actually paying cash at the Home End have been for the last two home games - I don't know but I'd be astonished if they were in excess of 200.  And as I've alluded to above, there are firm reasons for that.

 

2 hours ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

2008/09 being 722 in a League with teams like Elgin, Berwick and Annan in it who bring about 49 fans between is not too bad at all I'd say. To gain a properly representative picture you'd really need a home attendance only figure. I certainly don't see a massive change in the home numbers (apart from when we play Rangers when I see plenty of new faces...) in fact the people who sit around me are (by and large) the same guys who I sat with 08/09 - with the exception of one guy who gave up his ST this year.

Statistically I could well be wrong, but I'd be fascinated to see the average home end attendances from the past few years. I'd guess that they haven't grown by much at all.

You're both making my point for me. Of course we have to take account of visiting supporters and our crowds are higher than previously because we are in a higher division. I was responding to the suggestion that we might go down a league to improve our support and I am merely pointing out that we are not going to get better crowds by being at the top of a lower division. Crowds would go down. And yes very few pay cash but our season ticket numbers are currently substantially higher than they were before we came in to the Championship.Our home support is pretty much the same as it has been for the last thirty years and whether we play in the Champions league or the Lowland league it's unlikely to change a great deal.