Independence - how would you vote?

[Mr Bairn]

Assuming they're all EU members.

Then yes, fees(or lack of) would need to be consistent. It would all depend on who's in government in Edinburgh, to be honest. I'd imagine there would be ways round it, such as increasing fees for international students, a cap on the number of EU places, or, if feasible, introducing fees but give Scottish 18 year olds a little reward of say, 36 grand, if they earn a uni place.

[Mr Bairn]

You have previously stated that a fear of losing the free tuition fees could drive your thinking towards no, so surely, you have an appreciation of what that tuition fee policy means to the youth of Scotland. Why would that appreciation change and diminish simply because you are done with it? If you possess the critical faculties to understnad and appreciate the value of tertiary education widely available due to the low up fornt costs scotland offers, why would you not wish to extend that benefit to those who come after you?

Because it's a drain on me? Because it will increase competition and lead to my own unemployment?

Granted, if this was 5 years ago, I'd be going for the free tuition, but when I think about it, we'll be in the union until my final year anyway, at which point tuition fees would become advantageous to myself.

Maybe the biggest sticking point is that my heart simply isn't in independence.

[Mr Bairn]

I would imagine in an independent Scotland they would look to something like what they have in British Columbia. When you graduate, if you stay in the province and work in the field you studied for and move to an area for three years where new graduates are needed, the government will pay your loan off. If they had something similar, but that you didn't need to pay your fees unless you moved out before three years were up. The majority of graduates stay in the city they first move to for ten years or so, so you can stop the London brain drain on Scotland pretty effectively.

But they would have to have the same rules for people residing in Scotland, too.

Also, we pay more as a percentage than we receive under Barnett and if they cut it by a Billion or two it would have a devastating impact on Scotland's ability to pay for services. That doesn't even take into account that we have to pay for things like Defence (Trident and wars), Crossrail and HS-2 before they give us our pocket money.

None of which I have a problem with. Loss of trident is one of my main issues with independence.

[Mr. Bojangles]

Because it's a drain on me? Because it will increase competition and lead to my own unemployment?

Granted, if this was 5 years ago, I'd be going for the free tuition, but when I think about it, we'll be in the union until my final year anyway, at which point tuition fees would become advantageous to myself.

Maybe the biggest sticking point is that my heart simply isn't in independence.

It's probably because you're a Tory.

[Mr Bairn]

It's probably because you're a Tory.

Problem?

[Mr. Bojangles]

No problem, but if you're only concerned with your narrow self interest, you'll probably be moving to London in any case. Given the way in which you express yourself, I can see why you would be concerned about having to face competition.

[renton]

Because it's a drain on me? Because it will increase competition and lead to my own unemployment?

Granted, if this was 5 years ago, I'd be going for the free tuition, but when I think about it, we'll be in the union until my final year anyway, at which point tuition fees would become advantageous to myself.

Maybe the biggest sticking point is that my heart simply isn't in independence.

I get that you are a bit right wing, so let's look at this in terms of enlightened self interest: without a steady stream of people coming through University, Scotland (and the wider UK) will suffer from a brain drain, leading to decreased job opportunities as companies will not invest in an unskilled economy. This in turn will put your job at risk, and without that skilled competition will lead to further stagnation of wages (which will be no good for you) and impact on other services. Cutting the rope after you've climbed it is typical of recent neo-liberal thinking, but it's ultimately self destructive.

[Baxter Parp]

Because it's a drain on me? Because it will increase competition and lead to my own unemployment?

So rather than thinking about it critically, you're thinking about it selfishly.

Here's a thought, all those arseholes in the government gleefully ramping up the tuition fees got paid to go through Uni.

[Mr Bairn]

So rather than thinking about it critically, you're thinking about it selfishly.

Here's a thought, all those arseholes in the government gleefully ramping up the tuition fees got paid to go through Uni.

Critically thinking of tuition fees, my choice would be the Labour graduate tax.

[Swampy]

That's interesting but Labour's tame economist reckons the Scottish block grant will be cut by 2.2Bn (http://archive.is/QdTkX), doesn't that mean that change will happen whether you like it or not and not for the better?

This can't be emphasized enough. There is no status quo option here. Vote No and you consign Scotland to a union that's increasingly anti-EU, increasingly anti-welfare spending, and highly unlikely to treat Scottish affairs with a sympathetic eye. No matter which way you vote, Scotland is going to change.

[Baxter Parp]

Problem?

Yes, it means you're a hopeless case, too busy thinking about what's good for you rather than Scotland as a whole, and too stupid to realise that what's good for Scotland is also good for you.

[renton]

None of which I have a problem with. Loss of trident is one of my main issues with independence.

There is not a single, practical reason for retaining the nuclear deterrent, based on Vanguard/Trident. Not one.

It's original purpose was as a back up to the US missile shield, based on the understandable misgivings of the British government, that a Soviet strike into Europe, were it fashioned deliberately to avoid US casualties or attacks on US cities, might not illicit a nuclear response from the States. Europe was always nervous about Soviet attempts to decouple the US from Europe: Would the Americans really risk their civilisation becuase of the destruction of London? Even then, however, there was the issue of arsenal sizes. Could Polaris or Trident have generated enough damage to stop the Soviets? Given the relative disparity in arsenals, might the Soviets have decided to risk it anyway?

So you see, even in it's original, valid function, there are doubts over the efficiacy of a British nuclear deterrent. Now look at it in modern terms. There is no near peer opponent, no mass of nuclear weaponry pointed at us. The atmosphere and climate has demonstratably changed in 30 years. I'll be there are even British prime ministers, for whom, if deterrence failed, would not shoot back - what would be the point?

They are an enormous drain on the armed forces budget. The army always fought any expansion of it, and the RAF, once it lost that duty to the Navy, was always keen to get away from that so more money could go to front line strike jets. Even the navy would probably trade them in for a third carrier and a couple of extra attack subs.

So you have a situation where politically, their use as a deterrent is in doubt, both in terms of generating a credible deterrence in terms of firepower and in term sof political will to use it (they've nevber been considered as a first strike weapon, and Britain lacks the infrastructure to use them as such) and they are a practical drain on the defence budget, let alone other apsects of government expenditure where the money could be better spent.

[Baxter Parp]

Critically thinking of tuition fees, my choice would be the Labour graduate tax.

That's how it worked in the seventies. The government paid you through Uni, you paid your taxes when you earned money.

[~~~]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/bloggers/as-others-see-us-the-view-from-quebec-2-.1382955744

A view from Quebec

[DeeGas]

Is'nt it the case that some on this forum and plenty in Scotland are just typical phoney Socialists and snobbish Greens,who are quite well off and only worship at the alter of their god,the mortgage.

Bogus,pretending to be into the collective good,but their parents took the Thatcher bribe and therefore signed themselves and probably their children into a life of bullshit and "bettering themselves" at the expence of anything that gets in the way of their god .

Thatchers people,liars.

The Greens,well off,protesting about supermarkets in town and if you can't afford to shop at the local organic traders,then f**k you.

Plenty of liars in Scotland.

Selfish c***s through and through.

[Swampy]

Yes, it means you're a hopeless case, too busy thinking about what's good for you rather than Scotland as a whole, and too stupid to realise that what's good for Scotland is also good for you.

Renton addressed this point very well: an economy without 'competition' from other highly-educated workers is in fact a dysfunctional economy. By virtually every measure available - wealth, health, crime, happiness - an educated populace is better *for the individual* than one that isn't. This is simply not collectivism, either. There is plenty of scope for individual choice, advancement, and acquisition within such a system.

Unless you're a complete fucking thicko like Mr. Bairn, admittedly.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

Was pretty surprised by that latest poll. Was very much in the want it to happen but it's got no fucking chance mindset but that margin isn't impossible by any means.

Reckon Yes will have to be comfortably ahead going into the last few weeks. You can still guarantee the scaremongering will ramp up a gear and Scotland's more gullible populace will shite themselves at the chance of doing something positive.

[DeeGas]

Was pretty surprised by that latest poll. Was very much in the want it to happen but it's got no fucking chance mindset but that margin isn't impossible by any means.

Reckon Yes will have to be comfortably ahead going into the last few weeks. You can still guarantee the scaremongering will ramp up a gear and Scotland's more gullible populace will shite themselves at the chance of doing something positive.

Yep and Rab will have to somehow justify his claim that the streets of Scotland will be paved with gold in inde Scotland.

I can see it now,dear oh dear.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

Dee Gas, I'm a lefty from a not well-off background. My opinions and outlook is based on being a reasonably intelligent person.

Deal with it bitch.

[DeeGas]

Dee Gas, I'm a lefty from a not well-off background. My opinions and outlook is based on being a reasonably intelligent person.

Deal with it bitch.

Happy to hear it Sodjes,although the rude Americanism is a shame.

Rented property then,parents rented?