Independence - how would you vote?

[Mr Rational]

I have now made a decision on this, previously I was of the mindset that psychologically I can understand the desire for Scotland to be independent but the financial outlay and possible ramifications would not benefit Scotland at this time. However as more and more desperate attacks come from London, from the leaking of the Faslane thing to the roaming charges and claims about oil running out in less than 5 years, coupled with the race to appease the xenophobic right wing nut jobs down South, it's clear to me that I simply don't wish to be part of the Union any more.

I may have been swayed by the Better Together campaign if they weren't so blatant about their tactics, and voted grudgingly in a pragmatic way "no", but I just can't swallow that any more.

I wonder if the No campaign realises just how badly they have shat themselves with their continued lies and petty attacks? The SNP seem to have played this pretty well by holding fire as it's not as if the Yes campaign doesn't have a serious set of problems to resolve.

Welcome aboard. Yer not alone in yer journey btw, loads of folk are coming to the same conclusion by the same route.

[Ric]

Welcome aboard. Yer not alone in yer journey btw, loads of folk are coming to the same conclusion by the same route.

The problem is that if Salmond wishes to keep the pound and keep the monarchy then in turn I would abstain from the vote.

We either go fully independent or not at all, some half way house is simply not acceptable in my eyes.

[xbl]

I've been planning to get involved properly for a while. I was going to go to a meeting a couple of weeks ago but something came up.

My point wasn't about what is going on behind the scenes. Just that in the mainstream media the scare stories are getting less of a challenge than they were a couple of months ago.

Most people in the country aren't looking for the facts and they don't seem to be getting out as much recently. Like the most recent oil shite wasn't challenged in public as much as it should've been from what I saw of the reporting.

I think part of that is because they don't need to be. People are becoming increasingly sceptical and seem to be just tuning out a lot of the scare stories. Plus there is nothing new. It is just the same regurgitated rubbish over and over, and people are starting to see that.

[Mr Rational]

The problem is that if Salmond wishes to keep the pound and keep the monarchy then in turn I would abstain from the vote.

We either go fully independent or not at all, some half way house is simply not acceptable in my eyes.

Eyes on the prize, get independence first....

[Heidthebaw]

The problem is that if Salmond wishes to keep the pound and keep the monarchy then in turn I would abstain from the vote.

We either go fully independent or not at all, some half way house is simply not acceptable in my eyes.

Seriously, you'd prefer having endless neo liberal friutcakes in parliament than independence? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Granny Danger]

The problem is that if Salmond wishes to keep the pound and keep the monarchy then in turn I would abstain from the vote.

We either go fully independent or not at all, some half way house is simply not acceptable in my eyes.

There are a few of the SNP (Salmond) policies that I don't like - continued membership of the EU for one. However this wouldn't stop me from voting yes. One change at a time.

[xbl]

The problem is that if Salmond wishes to keep the pound and keep the monarchy then in turn I would abstain from the vote.

We either go fully independent or not at all, some half way house is simply not acceptable in my eyes.

Why not get rid of them later? Why do they have to be got rid of right then? In fact, HOW would they be got rid of right then?

Take the monarchy, that can be got rid of at any time a government chooses to hold a referendum on it. So why does it have to be got rid of right away? And countries like Australia have the monarchy, and yet they are not considered "a half way house".

As for the pound. Switching on day one would be lunacy. It is just common sense to agree to use the pound for the first few years while things are settled down, and then look at things in a few years time. It is the same for anything. Once we are independent, we will have the power to change all these things at will. If we are not, then we are stuck without a voice.

Could you really look at yourself in 2015 if it was somehow a No vote, knowing that you abstained on a ridiculous point of principle like that, and as a result got nothing? Surely not?

[renton]

The problem is that if Salmond wishes to keep the pound and keep the monarchy then in turn I would abstain from the vote.

We either go fully independent or not at all, some half way house is simply not acceptable in my eyes.

Independence is about giving ourselves the option to make those choices, not aobut arriving in a state of nirvana all at once. It's a serries of processes, not a one off event.

[Ric]

Right, so we spend a hell of a lot of money only to get half way? If a job is worth doing it's worth doing right.

Keeping the pound, for example, is not independence as our entire economy would be tied to the rest of the UK and effectively means controlled by the whims of the Bank of England.

[Mr Rational]

If and it's a big if, we win, I would expect a referendum on the currency about 10 years afterwards and a referendum on the monarchy 5 years after Liz.

[Jordo1872]

Read xbl's last post agin, pause and re-think.

[Ric]

Jesus, it's like people are scared to make the break. Day 1 of independence should mean the launch of either a Scottish pound or our acceptance of the Euro. Day 1 of independence should be the immediate renunciation of loyalty to the English crown. These are the things you expect from an independent country. If Salmond had the balls he would just say these things outright, but he is playing his cards too close to his chest in the sense he is appeasing those in order to fool them into voting Yes.

[~~~]

The problem is that if Salmond wishes to keep the pound and keep the monarchy then in turn I would abstain from the vote.

We either go fully independent or not at all, some half way house is simply not acceptable in my eyes.

Really, it's an all or nothing for you?

[Ric]

Really, it's an all or nothing for you?

Yup. It has to be.

And let's not give some sort of bullshit "oh, it's too early". How long has the SNP banged on about independence? Are people trying to suggest the notion has been forced upon them at the last minute. The SNP if they were doing their jobs, should have every single angle mapped out to the n'th degree. The very fact it flounders on some of the most basic questions asked of them by the 'no camp' suggests they do not have this which is worrying.

[renton]

Jesus, it's like people are scared to make the break. Day 1 of independence should mean the launch of either a Scottish pound or our acceptance of the Euro. Day 1 of independence should be the immediate renunciation of loyalty to the English crown. These are the things you expect from an independent country. If Salmond had the balls he would just say these things outright, but he is playing his cards too close to his chest in the sense he is appeasing those in order to fool them into voting Yes.

It's not about being scared to make the break, it's about getting ourselves in a position to be able to make the break comfortably. Plenty of independent nations still have the British crown, and while I want rid of them we will never be in a position to do so, unless there is put in place the structures to vote on it - that means an independent government.

Independence is about having the ability to make decisions. Not about any single decision. If we had an independent government, and there was a popular mandate for the decision, then we could rid ourselves of the monarchy. Abstaining on the vote in 2014 is a de facto vote in faovur of the status quo and the monarchy that you so despise, becuase the chances of the British parliament dissolving the monarchy are less than slim, no?

As for the pound, well it makes sense to keep it in the short term while both Scotland and the rUK readjust to new circumstances. What we do after that is completely up to us.

[DeeGas]

Right, so we spend a hell of a lot of money only to get half way? If a job is worth doing it's worth doing right.

Keeping the pound, for example, is not independence as our entire economy would be tied to the rest of the UK and effectively means controlled by the whims of the Bank of England.

Well there is no way on earth Salmond and Company Separitist have the nerve to go for "all" because he's scared of losing votes.

Eg,the Monarchy.

That leaves "nothing."

[Ric]

As I say Renton, this is not a new idea, we have been mulling over the ramifications for decades now. To not have a transition plan in place should the vote be Yes is almost a dereliction of duty on behalf of those supporting independence.

[~~~]

Yup. It has to be.

And let's not give some sort of bullshit "oh, it's too early". How long has the SNP banged on about independence? Are people trying to suggest the notion has been forced upon them at the last minute. The SNP if they were doing their jobs, should have every single angle mapped out to the n'th degree. The very fact it flounders on some of the most basic questions asked of them by the 'no camp' suggests they do not have this which is worrying.

I don't see how it has to be, things don't change over night. small steps at a time. If the SNP or YES Scotland came out wanting independence and to become a republic at once, I wouldn't see a lot of the undecided voting for it, and we see how the media in this country react towards groups wanting to abolish the monarchy. They take no interest or take the piss out of them.

Becoming independent would be a massive step towards a republic, England won't vote to ditch the queen, but Scotland might well think otherwise

[xbl]

Right, so we spend a hell of a lot of money only to get half way? If a job is worth doing it's worth doing right.

Keeping the pound, for example, is not independence as our entire economy would be tied to the rest of the UK and effectively means controlled by the whims of the Bank of England.

Okay, let me put it to you slowly. Would you say that France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Portugal, and Belgium are independent countries? Yes or no?

Second question. Would you say that Australia and Canada are independent countries? Yes or no?

Next up, your demand that we launch a new currency on day one? Are you completely batshit mental? This is the sort of argument that only a St. Mirren fan would put forward (see Reynard et al.). Day one should be about getting settled down. With everything else going on, do we really need the hassle of a brand new currency going into operation too? This is lunacy.

Independence isn't about changing everything, its about being able to change. There is a significant difference. As you know, I'm personally in favour of the Euro, but even if we wanted to join there Euro, there would be YEARS of delay before it was implemented. It isn't possible to join on day one. However, 5 years down the line, it might make sense to join, or to launch our own currency. Just because we stick with the pound on day one, doesn't mean we will stick with the pound long term.

But if you can't have a ludicrous change on day one, you will instead choose to implicitly cripple Scotland forever against your own beliefs? Take a look at yourself Ric.

[xbl]

As I say Renton, this is not a new idea, we have been mulling over the ramifications for decades now. To not have a transition plan in place should the vote be Yes is almost a dereliction of duty on behalf of those supporting independence.

There is a transition plan. It involves keeping the pound for the first few years to settle down. Honestly, you can take the boy out of Paisley...