Independence - how would you vote?

[renton]

As I say Renton, this is not a new idea, we have been mulling over the ramifications for decades now. To not have a transition plan in place should the vote be Yes is almost a dereliction of duty on behalf of those supporting independence.

This is a different argument to the one you'd previously made. I'd like to point out that a plan for independence in 1979 would be vastly different to one in 2013 since the domestic, economic, social and foreign situations between the two times is so radically different that dusting off ol' plan A is simply not viable.

Even the economic crash and the Eurozone crisis got in the way of what was almost certainly the SNP's plan A for currency. As it stands I think keeping the pound has some merit in the short term.

The overall theme here is that No asks for definiteve answers to questions that the yes side can't answer until negotiations with the UK government has begun, for example, a full currency union as opposed to just using Sterling. So while Yes scotland/SNP can say they want such a union, they cannot give a definitive answer on the subject until they've sat down and talked to the UK government, who refuse to sit down and talk about it (and who incidentally are, to all intents and purposes, the No campagin to start with).

[Ric]

Okay, let me put it to you slowly.

You could, but then you would look a condescending dick.

Would you say that France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Portugal, and Belgium are independent countries? Yes or no?

Are they sovereign countries, yes.

Second question. Would you say that Australia and Canada are independent countries? Yes or no?

Same answer as before.

I am unsure what the reason for these questions are. None are in the situation Scotland is in, so any basis of relation is going to be somewhat contrived.

Next up, your demand that we launch a new currency on day one? Are you completely batshit mental? This is the sort of argument that only a St. Mirren fan would put forward (see Reynard et al.). Day one should be about getting settled down. With everything else going on, do we really need the hassle of a brand new currency going into operation too? This is lunacy.

Independence isn't about changing everything, its about being able to change. There is a significant difference. As you know, I'm personally in favour of the Euro, but even if we wanted to join there Euro, there would be YEARS of delay before it was implemented. It isn't possible to join on day one. However, 5 years down the line, it might make sense to join, or to launch our own currency. Just because we stick with the pound on day one, doesn't mean we will stick with the pound long term.

But if you can't have a ludicrous change on day one, you will instead choose to implicitly cripple Scotland forever against your own beliefs? Take a look at yourself Ric.

Nope, clearly you are going down the condescending dick route. Congratulations on that and I hope it all works out for you.

Secondly you seem to have completely missed my point, as have several posters. This point is that we have been discussing independence ad infinitum for decades now, are you seriously telling me that there are no transitional plans other than "well if we vote yes then we all stop and think about shit for a while". These things should be in place already and a roadmap published to show when and where we are going, and if they are not (which is what seems to be the case with the amount of floundering Salmond does on certain issues) then that is nothing more than a dereliction of duty.

[Ric]

The overall theme here is that No asks for definiteve answers to questions that the yes side can't answer until negotiations with the UK government has begun, for example, a full currency union as opposed to just using Sterling. So while Yes scotland/SNP can say they want such a union, they cannot give a definitive answer on the subject until they've sat down and talked to the UK government, who refuse to sit down and talk about it (and who incidentally are, to all intents and purposes, the No campagin to start with).

The same answer applies though, are you telling me that the SNP (or whoever is running the Yes Campaign) didn't think this was to be the case? It is the basis of politics and has been for the last couple of centuries. Of course those against independence are going to be difficult to deal with, this is why politicians are politicians because they are meant to work around these issues.

[xbl]

Clearly I'm going to have to go down the condescending dick route because of the sheer absurdity of your position. We HAVE a transitional plan in place. Its called keep the pound for the first few years. Anything else is madness. Can you imagine the sheer practical implementations of it on day one? Lunacy.

As for a roadmap, that is the sort of thing that will require the co-operation of the CDU. IT will need discussion with them, and bear in mind that the Scottish Government has made several offers to sort these things out, but all have been rebuffed. Publishing a "this is what we would like to happen" does nothing good.

Now, you answered yes to both the question about countries in the Eurozone (countries sharing a currency!), and countries that shared the monarchy. So if those are independent, why wouldn't Scotland be? And is your second preference to being another European country sharing a currency to have nothing? Really? And you are surprised that I went down the condescending dick route?

[xbl]

I always thought that politically, you were one of the good St. Mirren fans. What on earth happens in Paisley?

[Colkitto]

The same answer applies though, are you telling me that the SNP (or whoever is running the Yes Campaign) didn't think this was to be the case? It is the basis of politics and has been for the last couple of centuries. Of course those against independence are going to be difficult to deal with, this is why politicians are politicians because they are meant to work around these issues.

Somehow I get the feeling your heart isn't, and indeed never was, in favour of independence.

[DeeGas]

Hello Ric,i'm English and live in England,no vote obviously but come on here to have my say because I want the Union to remain.

I think you're spot on about the lack of "road map" for the possible journey ahead for an inde Scotland.Too may Scots have stated they do not yet know enough to make their mind up etc.

The lack of vision and plan looks worryingly weak for voters considering the importance of the outcome of Sept 2014.

Maybe it's the old thing of people not liking change and if the SNP/separitists lay all their cards on the table it will frighten off too many Scots.

But,by not explaining the route to be taken,they are likely to lose the referendum.

Why play as if you're going for a draw when already 3 0 down.

[Enigma]

...coupled with the race to appease the xenophobic right wing nut jobs down South, it's clear to me that I simply don't wish to be part of the Union any more.

I think this could be a big feather in the yes camp. Cameron and co. are going to be further appeasing the right following a large UKIP vote in the 2014 European Parliament elections. The results in Scotland will be hugely different from England.

Right, so we spend a hell of a lot of money only to get half way? If a job is worth doing it's worth doing right.

Keeping the pound, for example, is not independence as our entire economy would be tied to the rest of the UK and effectively means controlled by the whims of the Bank of England.

Yes, but do you genuinely think an independent Scotland would be using the pound, say, 10 or even 5 years post independence?

[~~~]

I wonder if Better Together will mention this as part of the "FACT" campaign

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22274903

"A charity that provides emergency food banks says the number of people using them in Scotland more than doubled last year."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/food-banks-struggling-because-of-welfare-cuts-says-report.21217843

CHARITY groups have called on MPs to investigate the link between increasing numbers of people relying on food banks in Scotland and benefit cuts.

[Ric]

Clearly I'm going to have to go down the condescending dick route...

Congratulations, you also managed to keep up the good work in your subsequent post.

We HAVE a transitional plan in place.

Could you provide me with a link to that, and not some random witterings on a blog. I look forward to seeing the official transitional plan as up until now it seems to have been somewhat notable in it's absence.

As for a roadmap, that is the sort of thing that will require the co-operation of the CDU. IT will need discussion with them, and bear in mind that the Scottish Government has made several offers to sort these things out, but all have been rebuffed. Publishing a "this is what we would like to happen" does nothing good.

What utter twaddle. The people in charge of independence needs to clearly set out what they are planning to do after independence rather than just hope we all sit around stunned giving them a few months to cobble something together.

Now, you answered yes to both the question about countries in the Eurozone (countries sharing a currency!), and countries that shared the monarchy. So if those are independent, why wouldn't Scotland be? And is your second preference to being another European country sharing a currency to have nothing? Really? And you are surprised that I went down the condescending dick route?

What utterly contrived nonsense. The closest examples you are trying to use are Australia and Canada. Would you care to explain what years Canada and Australia effectively became independent countries?

As for suggesting a similarity to countries like France or Portugal, I seem to have forgotten when both of those countries shared a currency and a monarchy with another country before their independence.

[DeeGas]

I wonder if Better Together will mention this as part of the "FACT" campaign

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22274903

"A charity that provides emergency food banks says the number of people using them in Scotland more than doubled last year."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/food-banks-struggling-because-of-welfare-cuts-says-report.21217843

CHARITY groups have called on MPs to investigate the link between increasing numbers of people relying on food banks in Scotland and benefit cuts.

Same in plenty of other areas of the UK.

It's disgusting and a shame on the way the country has been run,but not just a Scottish problem.

[xbl]

Congratulations, you also managed to keep up the good work in your subsequent post.

Could you provide me with a link to that, and not some random witterings on a blog. I look forward to seeing the official transitional plan as up until now it seems to have been somewhat notable in it's absence.

What utterly contrived nonsense. The closest examples you are trying to use are Australia and Canada. Would you care to explain what years Canada and Australia effectively became independent countries?

As for suggesting a similarity to countries like France or Portugal, I seem to have forgotten when both of those countries shared a currency and a monarchy with another country before their independence.

You know the plan. You've heard the plan. Its been discussed many, many times. It involves keeping the pound short term.

OH, so basically, Australia is independent because it has been independent for a long time? So despite keeping the monarchy, they are independent because they've been independent for a long time? Tell me, can you give me a time scale on how long we would have to be a "halfway house" before we became independent? And you call MY post contrived nonsense?

As for France et al. Have you heard the expression "Euro"?

[Ric]

Yes, but do you genuinely think an independent Scotland would be using the pound, say, 10 or even 5 years post independence?

Why is this even a question? The very fact people don't know is that the Yes Campaign have not done their jobs correctly. With a year or so before the referendum nothing should be left to ambiguity.

[xbl]

You're just another St. Mirren fan. You know who else claimed to be a Yes voter last year? Reynard. You know what team Reynard supported? Yep.

[xbl]

Why is this even a question? The very fact people don't know is that the Yes Campaign have not done their jobs correctly. With a year or so before the referendum nothing should be left to ambiguity.

How do you expect them to tell the future? In 10 years time, you won't have a clue if there will even be a pound, or if the CDU will enter the Euro. You won't know if the Euro will be accepting new members, and you won't know what government has been elected in Scotland. You are asking for what is literally impossible to provide.

[Ric]

You know the plan.

So there isn't one. Why lie or try and work around the fact?

OH, so basically, Australia is independent because it has been independent for a long time? So despite keeping the monarchy, they are independent because they've been independent for a long time? Tell me, can you give me a time scale on how long we would have to be a "halfway house" before we became independent?

Deary me, are you being intentionally obtuse? Australia and Canada, the only countries you mention that bear a similarity to this situation became independent over 100 years ago. Are you seriously suggesting that the world is the same place as then?

As for France et al. Have you heard the expression "Euro"?

And before that France had the Franc. Was the Franc controlled by another country? Did France split from another nation and create the Franc? No, demonstrating how limited your connection between France using the Euro and Scotland using the English pound.

[Davi3j]

Ric, why does it HAVE to be all or nothing??? you stated your reasons on why you want rid of Westminster, so why do you have to have independence on exclusively your terms...think about it...the word is "negotiation" unfortunately, Ric, not everything is black or white,

[Ric]

You're just another St. Mirren fan. You know who else claimed to be a Yes voter last year? Reynard. You know what team Reynard supported? Yep.

Tell you what, why not actually post something a little constructive rather than trying to throw insults around? Some people might think that you are incapable of answering straight questions and would rather indulge in shit throwing instead.

How do you expect them to tell the future?

Brilliant. Does that mean that no politician in the world makes plans for the future because, you know, it's the future?

You won't know if the Euro will be accepting new members, and you won't know what government has been elected in Scotland. You are asking for what is literally impossible to provide.

So you can ask the question, but you can't put in place any solutions for the possible outcomes.

It is not literally impossible that massive melodrama, and utterly defeatist. Do you open a 1000 piece jigsaw and immediately give up because there are too many possible combinations?

[xbl]

It is not literally impossible that massive melodrama, and utterly defeatist. Do you open a 1000 piece jigsaw and immediately give up because there are too many possible combinations?

No, but I accept that I won't be able to complete the jigsaw immediately, and I work on the bits that I can do, filling in the rest as it develops over time. Your attitude seems to be "I can't see how its all going to fit, I'm throwing the jigsaw out".

You think a country that doesn't have its own currency isn't independent, but France is, despite using the Euro. You seem to think that a country that has the monarchy isn't independent, but Australia is, despite having the same queen (using the justification of independence happening a long time ago).

By setting demands that are literally impossible to be met, you are effectively guaranteeing that you won't be voting Yes, despite claiming to be in favour of independence. That makes you no better than Reynard.

[Ric]

It's not possible to predict the future accurately and make set in stone plans for 5 or 10 years hence.

As pointed out, just because it is the future does that mean we stop planning for it?

Scotland will remain part of a Sterling zone on day 1 and there is no reason why we shouldn't given we own a percentage of Sterling. Why should we just give that up if it doens't suit us.

Effectively the status quo in terms of the currency, but then you go on to say "if it doesn't suit us". Haven't we had enough time to figure out of it suits us or not, after all it's only been 300 odd years.

You suggest the Euro being a better day 1 alternative, but this contradicts your desire for so called complete independence.

Actually no, it doesn't although in a sense I never suggested the Euro being the "best" day 1 alternative. What we would have under an English pound is one country controlling our finances. If it was the Euro we would effectively have 26 (27 with Croatia? 28 with us?) all with a controlling stake.

You are either mental or you are at it.

Another, "I don't agree with you so your viewpoint is entirely invalid", keep at it, I'll have a full house soon.

Ric, why does it HAVE to be all or nothing??? you stated your reasons on why you want rid of Westminster, so why do you have to have independence on exclusively your terms...think about it...the word is "negotiation" unfortunately, Ric, not everything is black or white,

It is because these things are utterly core to the situation we find ourselves in. Smaller issues I have no problems with further discussions, however the important stuff needs to be done there and then.

To suggest I want independence on my terms is facile. Everyone wants things on their own terms.