Malaysia Airlines flight MH370

[Hedgecutter]

Im now blaming these boys.

They're from Mali. Probably brought down by a stray tambourine or something.

Sneaky.

[Hillonearth]

Im now blaming these boys.

They're from Mali. Probably brought down by a stray tambourine or something.

Malian remake of the Mighty Boosh?

[Lisa Cuddy]

I blame Airdrie United.

[Newbornbairn]

Im now blaming these boys.

They're from Mali. Probably brought down by a stray tambourine or something.

I thought Phil Lynott was deid?

[Zetterlund]

All has gone quiet on the blame game front, with all coverage now relating to the ongoing fighting restricting investigators' access to the crash site.

I am sure the Russian's will be desperate to get these images out to the general public so we can all see.

On the day this was posted, they did -

Strange how this was largely ignored by our news programs - you'd think that actual satellite imagery and air traffic control information from the exact moment of the crash would be considered quite relevant.

If the US and the Ukraine governments are so certain it was the separatists who were responsible, then I'm sure they will have equally convincing evidence which, for some reason, they've been holding onto for 9 days now since Russia presented theirs.

The evidence from the US side so far seems to consist of them saying "we have evidence".

[Tryfield]

An interview with one of the OSCE guys. He's suggesting machine gun fire brought down MH17. Footage of the fusilage seems to show this too, but maybe that got done after the crash by the rebels?

[Newbornbairn]

He doesn't know what he's talking about and admits as much. Machine gun fire? There's no machine gun that could hit a plane 6 miles up and fighter aircraft like the Mig29 carry 30mm cannon that blow big f**k off holes in things, not machineguns. A SAM works by exploding in front of a target creating a cloud of small shrapnel pieces that the plane flies into. These small pieces of shrapnel will create exactly the kind of small holes pictured.

Very very unprofessional for someone in his position (what is his position?) to be spreading uninformed, misleading and speculative gossip to the media.

[Romeo]

All has gone quiet on the blame game front, with all coverage now relating to the ongoing fighting restricting investigators' access to the crash site.

On the day this was posted, they did -

Strange how this was largely ignored by our news programs - you'd think that actual satellite imagery and air traffic control information from the exact moment of the crash would be considered quite relevant.

If the US and the Ukraine governments are so certain it was the separatists who were responsible, then I'm sure they will have equally convincing evidence which, for some reason, they've been holding onto for 9 days now since Russia presented theirs.

The evidence from the US side so far seems to consist of them saying "we have evidence".

Not seeing any "satellite imagery" ? Plenty of powerpoint type stuff though.

[welshbairn]

He doesn't know what he's talking about and admits as much. Machine gun fire? There's no machine gun that could hit a plane 6 miles up and fighter aircraft like the Mig29 carry 30mm cannon that blow big f**k off holes in things, not machineguns. A SAM works by exploding in front of a target creating a cloud of small shrapnel pieces that the plane flies into. These small pieces of shrapnel will create exactly the kind of small holes pictured.

Very very unprofessional for someone in his position (what is his position?) to be spreading uninformed, misleading and speculative gossip to the media.

He's the press spokesman, just started with the OSCE. No background in air crash investigation.

Canadian writer Michael Bociurkiw has worked as a journalist in Canada, the US and Asia. He’s also served for more than a decade as a staff member and consultant for UN agencies on five continents. A social media expert and digital influencer, he is about to publish his first non-fiction book. His passions are: helping others, travel, food, wine, networking and cycling...oh - and all things Ukrainian (his heritage).

From a press briefing:

Michael Bociurkiw of the OSCE group of monitors at his daily briefing described part of the plane's fuselage dotted with "shrapnel-like, almost machine gun-like holes." He said the damage was inspected by Malaysian aviation-security officials.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/mh17-pieces-with-shrapnel-like-holes-osce-says-1406230555

I don't think he realises yet how critical the language he uses is. Either that or he's trying to show the Russians/Rebels that he's open minded to help get access to the site.

[Zetterlund]

Not seeing any "satellite imagery" ? Plenty of powerpoint type stuff though.

That footage must have been from an American news crew

There are others that actually show the images they're talking about -

Satellite images of Ukrainian army SAM batteries being moved into the area before the crash and being removed from the area afterwards, despite there being no need for them as the rebels have no aircraft. Also air traffic control data of a Ukrainian fighter plane trailing the airliner a couple of minutes before it disappeared.

If this was the other way around and the missile launchers and fighter jet belonged to the rebels then I'm sure we'd all be 100% convinced they did it. Inconveniently however, they belong to the 'good guys' so this evidence has been brushed under the carpet by most of our news media.

Maybe it's all faked? In any case we need to see some evidence from the other side - it's actually quite amazing that so many people have made up their minds already despite the total lack of any proof.

[welshbairn]

The reason I don't trust RT and the Russian Government line is that it's changed so many times. It was the Ukrainian's SAM, it was a Ukrainian jet trying to shoot down Putin's jet which was in the area, Putin's jet wasn't in the area but they shot MH17 down just to make the rebels look bad, MH17 was full of corpses before it was shot down. Sounds like a massive bit of panicky deflection to me, and enough foil hatters will believe one of the stories to make it stick. There's been lots of compelling evidence to me from the Ukrainian side, the phone bugs and facebook stuff seemed too real to be concocted, but I suppose some people will always believe it's all been craftily faked. And the rebels who have later admitted it was them what done it must have been paid off by the nasty West.

[Zetterlund]

The reason I don't trust RT and the Russian Government line is that it's changed so many times. It was the Ukrainian's SAM, it was a Ukrainian jet trying to shoot down Putin's jet which was in the area, Putin's jet wasn't in the area but they shot MH17 down just to make the rebels look bad, MH17 was full of corpses before it was shot down. Sounds like a massive bit of panicky deflection to me, and enough foil hatters will believe one of the stories to make it stick. There's been lots of compelling evidence to me from the Ukrainian side, the phone bugs and facebook stuff seemed too real to be concocted, but I suppose some people will always believe it's all been craftily faked. And the rebels who have later admitted it was them what done it must have been paid off by the nasty West.

All those theories you listed were just speculation from random people and websites, nothing official from Russia, unlike the US who immediately pinned the blame on them. The 'corpses on the plane' one came from one rebel soldier on the ground.

Surely the US can't continue to cling to social media 'evidence' when faced with actual hard satellite, radar and ATC data? Are we to just accept that the unknown voices on YouTube and the anonymous Facebook accounts discussing the crash are legit but the Spanish air traffic controller was fake? (despite the same guy having done media interviews about the Ukraine crisis in the past). And the 5-second clip of a missile launcher being moved which turned out to have been filmed in a Ukraine-controlled town. None of this is anything like compelling to me.

2 days after Russia held their press conference, a US State Department spokeswoman was asked how they respond to it to which she replied "I haven't seen any of that" - making a complete fool of herself and their version of events. She went on to say it was "just common sense" that the separatists did it.

If they have evidence to counter the Russians' version then let's see it, then I may be more convinced. But trying to remain neutral and making up my own mind from what both sides have put forward, I don't think someone needs to be a tinfoil hatter to question anything.

[welshbairn]

All those theories you listed were just speculation from random people and websites, nothing official from Russia, unlike the US who immediately pinned the blame on them. The 'corpses on the plane' one came from one rebel soldier on the ground.

All were reported on RT which is owned by the Russian Government.

[Zetterlund]

All were reported on RT which is owned by the Russian Government.

These stories were also reported in our media at the time. America's rush to judgement with zero credible evidence is more incriminating than the reporting of several different theories.

[welshbairn]

These stories were also reported in our media at the time. America's rush to judgement with zero credible evidence is more incriminating than the reporting of several different theories.

The evidence I've seen I find compelling. It's also the much more likely scenario. A fcuk up by the rebels trying to shoot down what they thought was a Ukrainian forces plane, 2 of which they'd shot down in the days before, or an elaborate plot prepared long in advance with the potential for going very badly wrong in so many ways, to gain not very much.

[Zetterlund]

The evidence I've seen I find compelling. It's also the much more likely scenario. A fcuk up by the rebels trying to shoot down what they thought was a Ukrainian forces plane, 2 of which they'd shot down in the days before, or an elaborate plot prepared long in advance with the potential for going very badly wrong in so many ways, to gain not very much.

If the rebel forces had the missile systems capable of doing this then I'd be more inclined to agree, especially if it was backed up with proof of them having it and using it. Previous planes they allegedly shot down were done so with shoulder-mounted rockets with a much shorter and lower range. As it is, we're told that the US know they have the weapons but they haven't made any attempt to prove it.

What isn't being reported is that the Ukrainian military have 29 of these Buk missile systems, 3 or 4 of which it has been proven by satellite images were moved into the area of the crash in the days leading up to it, then removed from the scene immediately after. You would think a neutral news media would want an explanation for this, but it is just ignored.

Also your last point I have to disagree with. The rebels and Russians had everything to lose by shooting down an airliner as the last thing they'd want is more Western involvement. The Kiev government on the other hand will benefit hugely from more Western help and a weakened Russia, not to mention the damage it has done to the perception of Russia worldwide.

The US say they have the evidence so they should just show it and everyone's happy.

[Savage Henry]

It's pretty much accepted that the plane was shot down by Ukrainian separatists armed by the Russians, is it not? None of the foreign policy/international relations experts seem to be deviating from that position anyway.

As for RT. There's a big difference between presenting critical positions and propagandist bollocks. RT too often falls into the latter.

[welshbairn]

If the rebel forces had the missile systems capable of doing this then I'd be more inclined to agree, especially if it was backed up with proof of them having it and using it. Previous planes they allegedly shot down were done so with shoulder-mounted rockets with a much shorter and lower range. As it is, we're told that the US know they have the weapons but they haven't made any attempt to prove it.

What isn't being reported is that the Ukrainian military have 29 of these Buk missile systems, 3 or 4 of which it has been proven by satellite images were moved into the area of the crash in the days leading up to it, then removed from the scene immediately after. You would think a neutral news media would want an explanation for this, but it is just ignored.

Also your last point I have to disagree with. The rebels and Russians had everything to lose by shooting down an airliner as the last thing they'd want is more Western involvement. The Kiev government on the other hand will benefit hugely from more Western help and a weakened Russia, not to mention the damage it has done to the perception of Russia worldwide.

The US say they have the evidence so they should just show it and everyone's happy.

They shot down a Ukrainian cargo plane at 21 thousand feet on July 14th, way beyond the capability of a shoulder mounted missile. Russia's reputation was already dire. If the Ukrainians made the slightest error and were caught, however, it would be catastrophic for them. They'd lose all support from the west, and they'd be fcuked and bankrupt. What do you really think more likely, a fuckup by the rebels, or a hugely complex conspiracy by Ukraine that would have had to be prepared weeks or months in advance.

[jock001]

Surely the US can't continue to cling to social media 'evidence' when faced with actual hard satellite, radar and ATC data? Are we to just accept that the unknown voices on YouTube and the anonymous Facebook accounts discussing the crash are legit but the Spanish air traffic controller was fake? (despite the same guy having done media interviews about the Ukraine crisis in the past). And the 5-second clip of a missile launcher being moved which turned out to have been filmed in a Ukraine-controlled town. None of this is anything like compelling to me.

All independant news sources like al jazeera are reporting the spanish controller didn't exist and that no non Ukranians are emplyed in that role.

You say he does exist and there's footage of him being interviewed?

[welshbairn]

"Carlos" claimed he had to flee the country in May after an arrest warrant was issued for him and his family was threatened. Suddenly in July he's back in his "job" in the Kiev control tower just in time to tweet about the downing of the jet? Swiftly followed a pixelated RT interview with him safe in Madrid. Maybe this is part of why I'm more convinced by the Western narrative.