jock001 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Hadn't RT previously admitted the tweets were faked and came from a London IP? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 What would the US, UK and EU have to gain from pinning this on Russia? I accept tensions have been growing but as far as I can see, everyone is a loser when it comes to the sanctions etc that have come as a result of this. I realise there's probably a worry Russia are attempting to annex the Eastern Bloc again, what with South Ossetia, Crimea and now Ukraine. But enough of a worry to pin events like these on them? Don't think we're there yet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Satellite images of Ukrainian army SAM batteries being moved into the area before the crash and being removed from the area afterwards, despite there being no need for them as the rebels have no aircraft. Also air traffic control data of a Ukrainian fighter plane trailing the airliner a couple of minutes before it disappeared. Where are these satellite images? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee Man Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Anyway, have we completely forgotten about MH370? Surely some of the passenger mobile phone batteries will be running low now. Not if they had a Nokia 3310 they won't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zetterlund Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 They shot down a Ukrainian cargo plane at 21 thousand feet on July 14th, way beyond the capability of a shoulder mounted missile. Someone shot down a plane at 21,000 feet, and the Ukraine government blamed Russia because they knew the rebels didn't have the equipment. 3 days later they apparently did. All independant news sources like al jazeera are reporting the spanish controller didn't exist and that no non Ukranians are emplyed in that role. You say he does exist and there's footage of him being interviewed? To clarify, I'm not saying he is legit, I just used him as an example of why we shouldn't accept some social media evidence and dismiss other pieces. It's all equally easy to fabricate from both sides. I haven't seen video footage of him but I have read an interview with him on RT from back in May. As for RT. There's a big difference between presenting critical positions and propagandist bollocks. RT too often falls into the latter. This is true of just about every major news outlet in the world. Where are these satellite images? In the video I posted from 5:20. To answer the question of what I think is most likely, before any evidence was presented of course I'd say the most likely scenario was an accidental shoot down by the rebels. Unfortunately there has been zero evidence put forward to support this other than unverifiable social media posts. It doesn't have to be a complex conspiracy plot either, maybe it was an accidental shoot down by the Ukraine forces? I'm curious, doesn't anyone else want to know why the Ukrainian army moved BUK missile launchers, the type the US says it "knows" shot the plane down, into the area before removing them afterwards? Or why they sent a fighter to intercept it just before it disappeared off radar? If these were rebel launchers and a rebel jet the case would be closed, so why is this not worth considering? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I'm a bit curious why you accept the satellite images provided by the Russians at face value, but reject the voice recordings between rebels and their Russian commanders made public very soon after the plane went down. To fake that at short notice would be impossible, even to do it with a month's warning would be incredibly difficult. Just finding actors who don't sound like actors would be a major problem. And the transcripts have all the feel of authenticity. All praise to whoever made them if they are fake. Not quite sure what evidence you're after from the Americans. A video of the missile leaving the ground with a load of guys with miners hats standing around with a Russian general in the background, then the camera switches seemlessly into a missile pov as it nears the plane and black screen? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zetterlund Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Releasing voice recordings anonymously on YouTube isn't on the same level as holding a press conference in front of the world's media and laying out radar, satellite and ATC data. All of the data presented was then handed to European authorities, so if they have faked the lot then it will soon be found out. At the moment the Americans and our media are just ignoring it while endlessly stating the plane was "believed to have been shot down by pro-Russian separatists". Why are the US and Ukraine refusing to explain the points raised in the Russian presentation 11 days ago? For a State Department official to claim she hasn't seen it is embarrassing. Evidence I'd like to see from them - well an MS Paint drawing of a missile with a rebel flag on it would be more convincing than anything they've presented so far. Surely it's not too much hassle for Ukraine to release its ATC data? The US apparently had a satellite conveniently directly overhead of Eastern Ukraine at the exact time of the crash, related to navy drills in the Black Sea,, so surely this should be able to provide some clear pictures like the Russian one did. Or maybe any evidence at all of the alleged missile system crossing from Russia to Ukraine, the rebels being trained in its use and then smuggling it back again. I just find this story fascinating tbh. The black box findings are apparently due to be released on 1st August and the investigators finally got to the site today so hopefully there are some interesting developments to come. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghead ranter Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Can someone please take 2 seconds to educate a thicko? What or who is RT? thanks *beamer* 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Nederlander Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Can someone please take 2 seconds to educate a thicko? What or who is RT? thanks *beamer* let Me Google That For You 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghead ranter Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 let Me Google That For You i just getting Retweet, which believe it or not, i actually knew 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryfield Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Planes traveling from Moscow to Turkey and Greece are avoiding Ukraine airspace. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jock001 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Someone shot down a plane at 21,000 feet, and the Ukraine government blamed Russia because they knew the rebels didn't have the equipment. 3 days later they apparently did. To clarify, I'm not saying he is legit, I just used him as an example of why we shouldn't accept some social media evidence and dismiss other pieces. It's all equally easy to fabricate from both sides. I haven't seen video footage of him but I have read an interview with him on RT from back in May. This is true of just about every major news outlet in the world. In the video I posted from 5:20. To answer the question of what I think is most likely, before any evidence was presented of course I'd say the most likely scenario was an accidental shoot down by the rebels. Unfortunately there has been zero evidence put forward to support this other than unverifiable social media posts. It doesn't have to be a complex conspiracy plot either, maybe it was an accidental shoot down by the Ukraine forces? I'm curious, doesn't anyone else want to know why the Ukrainian army moved BUK missile launchers, the type the US says it "knows" shot the plane down, into the area before removing them afterwards? Or why they sent a fighter to intercept it just before it disappeared off radar? If these were rebel launchers and a rebel jet the case would be closed, so why is this not worth considering? If you were in the Ukranian air force, would you assume all aircraft are friendly and russia wouldn't send any bombers over your airspace or would you move anti air into the conflict zone and confirm all aircraft by visual ID? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbornbairn Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 That RT conference (I haven't bothered my arse watching it) apparently has the Russians claiming a Ukrainian SU25 shot down the airliner. Despite the fact the SU25 is a bomber, would need to be fitted with missiles and a fire control system, would need modifications to get to 31000ft and couldn't climb that high in the time available anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Surprised that people appear to be falling for Russian propaganda on this. A Ukrainian transport plane was shot down a few days earlier that was flying at an altitude that should have been out of range of conventional shoulder-launched missiles. Odds on some drunken ****wit assumed the Malaysian plane was another one of those and let rip with the BUK missile system: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 According to yourself the Ukranian forces would have flooded the entire rebel area months ago, rather than their actual string of humiliating defeats, so I don't think you're in a strong position to lecture anyone, really. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 ^^^ scrambling for relevance 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 ^^^ scrambling for relevance Hide your cider. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 anyone got these "satellite " images yet? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbornbairn Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 anyone got these "satellite " images yet? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Well that's made me look totally stupid, pesky Ukrainians. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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