The Famous Aberdeen - Season 2022/23

[Dons_1988]

7 minutes ago, coprolite said:

The difficulty with a DoF model in this country is that that's not how the existing managers will expect to work. I know i wouldn't want to apply for a job where i'll have less autonomy than i'm used to. 

The classic problem is the manager/coach loses autonomy yet retains all the responsibility when things go wrong.

I know if I felt like if someone else was signing the players but I got sacked when they were pish then I'd not be too keen.

That's a simplistic/extreme scenario but you have to be very careful how you structure it.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

22 minutes ago, coprolite said:

The difficulty with a DoF model in this country is that that's not how the existing managers will expect to work. I know i wouldn't want to apply for a job where i'll have less autonomy than i'm used to. 

I think that is true but while you lose a few talented but egomaniacal candidates the majority of "existing managers" who would be put off by this are dinosaurs you wouldn't want near the club anyway is the way I see it

[Dons_1988]

Just now, Genuine Hibs Fan said:

I think that is true but while you lose a few talented but egomaniacal candidates the majority of "existing managers" who would be put off by this are dinosaurs you wouldn't want near the club anyway is the way I see it

Bit simplistic, no?

There is no set DoF model so it is really all about the structure and how you sell it to the manager/head coach/whatever. There will be some 'old school' managers to be avoided but also plenty of very capable managers who might be put off as the structure prohibits them from developing a project the way they want.

The devil really is in the detail.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

1 minute ago, Dons_1988 said:

Bit simplistic, no?

There is no set DoF model so it is really all about the structure and how you sell it to the manager/head coach/whatever. There will be some 'old school' managers to be avoided but also plenty of very capable managers who might be put off as the structure prohibits them from developing a project the way they want.

The devil really is in the detail.

That's true, there's no one particular model to follow I suppose. I meant more that the sort of guys put off by that model in general, irrelevant of the specific structure, are guys you'd not want anyway

[coprolite]

36 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

The classic problem is the manager/coach loses autonomy yet retains all the responsibility when things go wrong.

I know if I felt like if someone else was signing the players but I got sacked when they were pish then I'd not be too keen.

That's a simplistic/extreme scenario but you have to be very careful how you structure it.

We should look at how Hearts did it. Then not do it like that. 

[Illgresi]

The DoF model could work in this country. You have to get an experienced manager with a lot of respect in football. One with a proven track record of signings, and moving them on for profit. They'd need to be an excellent man manager, but probably lacking in tactical knowledge and not the best trainer.

[Jacksgranda]

5 hours ago, coprolite said:

I think it was the wrong call to bin McInnes at this stage of the season. Football wise at least, maybe commercially, with an eye on Season tickets i can understand it. 

Binning McInnes without a replacement just seems like madness. 

^^

I know, unpopular opinions thread for this pish. 

My feelings, too.

[DrewDon]

2 hours ago, Merkland Red said:

Aye.

Hire DoF.

DoF hires manager/head coach.

DoF and manager/head coach review recruitment staff and process.

Yep, like Norwich did with Webber and Farke. Different situations, obviously, but we could do worse than look at some of the changes they made after sacking Neil, actually. 

[Jacksgranda]

3 hours ago, wastecoatwilly said:

McCormack was always going to pull the trigger,maybe time for a bit of ambition from the sheep.

F***, has the chairman gone, too?

[capt_oats]

11 minutes ago, DrewDon said:

Yep, like Norwich did with Webber and Farke. Different situations, obviously, but we could do worse than look at some of the changes they made after sacking Neil, actually. 

There's a good in depth bit with Webber here https://trainingground.guru/articles/stuart-webber-climb-of-the-canaries

I noticed that article around the time they had their bid for Turnbull accepted.

[Golden Gordon]

1 hour ago, Dons_1988 said:

The classic problem is the manager/coach loses autonomy yet retains all the responsibility when things go wrong.

I know if I felt like if someone else was signing the players but I got sacked when they were pish then I'd not be too keen.

That's a simplistic/extreme scenario but you have to be very careful how you structure it.

Agreed.  Don't want to discount the DoF model outright, but it might make things quite complicated in terms of isolating where the problem lies if results are poor.  Does the problem lie in the overarching philosophy, the DoF, the coach/manager or a combination of all three?

[DrewDon]

14 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

There's a good in depth bit with Webber here https://trainingground.guru/articles/stuart-webber-climb-of-the-canaries

I noticed that article around the time they had their bid for Turnbull accepted.

He was a guest on a podcast called "The Beautiful Game" a while back and I was pretty impressed with him - worth a listen if you are into that type of stuff. 

[tarapoa]

On 09/03/2021 at 12:22, Golden Gordon said:

Yep, it's been mentioned a few times on here by fans of other clubs that McInnes took us into Europe for seven successive seasons.  It's not to be sniffed at, but there was never any progress, season after season, beyond the qualifiers.  Qualifying for Europe became an end in itself, regardless of results in the competition or progress made. 

That's another circumstantial thing.

In 1986 we were in the European Cup quarter final - in March - having won just the two ties against Icelandic and Swiss opposition.

2007 as mentioned - it was one tie vs Dnipro and then the groups.

Now it's four qualifying rounds, where we are unseeded in two of them (previously three of them).

Next season the group stages are there for us if we finish above Hibs - but AFC's self-destruct button means we've likely messed that up too.

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by tarapoa

[tarapoa]

4 hours ago, HunterAFC said:

Think the Director of Football/Sporting Director model would be the best thing long term. One of the main complaints of the past decade is the lack of youth coming through.

.......and the ones that do come through ending up going to Sevco during their peak football years for two soldiers and a sausage.

[tarapoa]

On 09/03/2021 at 14:57, Dons_1988 said:

So Glass, who on the off chance is any good, will be heading back to Atlanta as soon as they decide they fancy him I take it? Or he just turns out to be shite.

Hud me back.

Is that a bad thing?  

 

22 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Tbf, and I'm not an Aberdeen fan so I can't compare, I always got the impression their Semi win v us at Tynecastle would've been a far more memorable day than the Final.

Much like, to me, our SC Semi win at Ibrox was better than the Final, as weird as that sounds.

For me it was. 3pm Saturday ko with a boozed up hardcore support in a stadium that was the right size for the occasion.   Very good game too.............still insist St Johnstone played better at Tynecastle than they did at Ibrox, but we were brutally clinical - which really isn't like us in a pressure game.

Ibrox was a Sunday lunchtime - so flat in comparison, even when we were leading. We looked quite comfortable, but Steven McLean was noticeably getting away with lots of fouls and I think wore us into submission - the last half hour or so, we could see what happened coming a mile off............with the script written for "whothef**k is?" SM to be the hero.

The only boxes "ParkRed" ticked for me were the trophy monkey off our back - and a long held belief that we could mobilise crazy numbers if the circumstances were right.  I was surrounded by people who clearly wouldn't be seen at Pittodrie for a Motherwell game or the likes.........and the Pawlett and Hayes injuries just made it a horrendous war of attrition with all our prior panache gone.

I regard the SF (and to an extent the QF at Firp Ark) as more special.

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by tarapoa

[d31]

5 hours ago, tarapoa said:

That's another circumstantial thing.

In 1986 we were in the European Cup quarter final - in March - having won just the two ties against Icelandic and Swiss opposition.

2007 as mentioned - it was one tie vs Dnipro and then the groups.

Now it's four qualifying rounds, where we are unseeded in two of them (previously three of them).

Next season the group stages are there for us if we finish above Hibs - but AFC's self-destruct button means we've likely messed that up too.

 

It's that AFC self destruct button that is making me cry and the reason I wanted to sack McInnes.

We have let Hibs get that spot, which should have been our spot, and we are gonna let them take with quite possibly a lower points total than what was required in the previous 7 years

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

Back to the DoF thing. Have we had one of these before ? I honestly can't remember. Was that not Craig Brown's job for a while ?

I know that we currently have a Director of football operations in Steven Gunn. 

My problem with all of that is that we become top heavy for a relatively small club. And the point about a manager's autonomy is a very good one. We're not Manchester City, where a DoF can scour Europe looking for 100 million quid players.....we sign loan players from English lower league clubs. 

For me, a DoF would be an unnecessary layer of administration, and an unnecessary expense. No thank you. 

 

[coprolite]

11 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

Back to the DoF thing. Have we had one of these before ? I honestly can't remember. Was that not Craig Brown's job for a while ?

I know that we currently have a Director of football operations in Steven Gunn. 

My problem with all of that is that we become top heavy for a relatively small club. And the point about a manager's autonomy is a very good one. We're not Manchester City, where a DoF can scour Europe looking for 100 million quid players.....we sign loan players from English lower league clubs. 

For me, a DoF would be an unnecessary layer of administration, and an unnecessary expense. No thank you. 

 

Was Keith Burkinshaw not a DoF for what seemed like a couple of months in the 90s? Or is my memory playing tricks again.?

[Dons_1988]

14 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

Back to the DoF thing. Have we had one of these before ? I honestly can't remember. Was that not Craig Brown's job for a while ?

I know that we currently have a Director of football operations in Steven Gunn. 

My problem with all of that is that we become top heavy for a relatively small club. And the point about a manager's autonomy is a very good one. We're not Manchester City, where a DoF can scour Europe looking for 100 million quid players.....we sign loan players from English lower league clubs. 

For me, a DoF would be an unnecessary layer of administration, and an unnecessary expense. No thank you. 

 

Was Willie Miller not a DoF during the Calderwood years? I genuinely can't remember.

Again, it really depends on what the role involves. I'm not a fan of the head coach being given players and essentially just training them and picking the team, however if the DoF just takes admin etc away from a manager like contract issues then it's a more attractive prospect.

Whatever the structure our recruitment shouldn't really just fall on the manager, it's been poor in recent years so how we identify and recruit targets should surely be looked at, whatever the outcome.

[Golden Gordon]

15 hours ago, tarapoa said:

That's another circumstantial thing.

In 1986 we were in the European Cup quarter final - in March - having won just the two ties against Icelandic and Swiss opposition.

2007 as mentioned - it was one tie vs Dnipro and then the groups.

Now it's four qualifying rounds, where we are unseeded in two of them (previously three of them).

Next season the group stages are there for us if we finish above Hibs - but AFC's self-destruct button means we've likely messed that up too.

 

I take your point that it's a longer road to qualify for the groups now.  Up until the past couple of seasons, McInnes' domestic record was consistently strong, aside from maybe not gaining as much silverware as he potentially could have.  My issue was with his lack of progress in Europe, given his repeated opportunities to learn how to navigate in the competition.  Aside from notable victories against Real Sociedad, Groningen & Rijeka & the draw against Burnley, it always seemed that McInnes & his sides lacked a level of guile & were regularly outfoxed by sides we could have had the chance to progress against.  Rightly or wrongly, that was the perception I was left with.