Sportsound Watch

[Ric]

Anecdote time...

The few that know me personally on here, may remember the girlfriend I had about a decade ago. Scots girl who was half Pakistani. Looked very Asian but sounded broad Scots, quite the head f**k for some of the racists when we were travelling. Well I consider myself almost painfully woke, and have been all my life as my friends will testify to yet even I was amazed at the amount of casual and implicit racism that she encountered on a daily basis. Those who purport the  idea that this sort of thing isn't endemic within society are either lucky enough to live within a bubble that has protected them from it, are blissfully unaware of their surroundings or are intentionally complicit. I don't say that to shame people, as even someone who considered themselves very much aware of the struggles that those from the BAME community faced, found myself having to rethink my own awareness when confronted with the reality of every day experiences.

It's the old "walk a mile in their shoes" adage. 

Does this address the racism in football thing? No not really. I think as a country we've come on. Racist chants and overt discrimination are now the exception rather than the norm, but the attitudes that permeated society take time and action to eradicate. I am no particular fan of Anas Sarwar's Labour party but I cannot fault his recent comments which highlighted the position rather succinctly..

 

[IrishBhoy]

Heard this song a few weeks ago and it does a good job of explaining some injustices black people face in Britain that I would imagine would sail over most white peoples head. Especially the part about African countries being named after their biggest exports e.g. Ivory Coast.  I will admit it was something I hadn’t realised but is obvious now. 
 

 

[Diamonds are Forever]

5 hours ago, tree house tam said:

Also unconscious bias is a thing that exists but it doesn't in my mind

 

This is brilliant.

One of the most ridiculous sentences I've read on this site.

[pandarilla]

Well I will look at the Implicit Association Tests that conclude that the correlation between implicate bias and discriminatory behaviour is very weak. And even at that, the 'expert' IAT has been debunked.     It is not what your unconscious (95%)  says, it is what you act upon (5%). 
Laws and sued for an unconscious thought?   I look forward to seeing someone prove that in court.    How very 1984.
Laws and sued for being biased? Thankfully, they are already here.

I think we're debating at cross purposes here.

I'm not talking about thought crime, or individuals being prosecuted. I'm talking about individuals suing organisations.

Those big organisations have bias throughout, but especially at the top. It's a natural thing - because we all have our biases - or are you denying that as well?

I'm talking about the police, the justice system, the civil service, major companies and even the sporting authorities, all having to take action to show they're promoting equality. It's no longer acceptable to just do nothing, and just stick by the process that 'the best man gets the job'.

There's a lot of good work being done.

The big ex celtic centre half was very impressive when speaking on sportsound today.

Heard this song a few weeks ago and it does a good job of explaining some injustices black people face in Britain that I would imagine would sail over most white peoples head. Especially the part about African countries being named after their biggest exports e.g. Ivory Coast.  I will admit it was something I hadn’t realised but is obvious now. 
 
 

That's outstanding. I've never heard that song. I've heard of dave, but that's the first time I've actually listened.

[IrishBhoy]

6 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

That's outstanding. I've never heard that song. I've heard of dave, but that's the first time I've actually listened.

The guy is only 21 years old. It genuinely made me open my eyes to a few things that I would never have contemplated. 
 

The guy he pays tribute to at the end is Jack Merritt, one of the people killed in the Westminster bridge terrorist attack last year. Jack Merritt had been working in prisons trying to reform young black offenders and had been working with Daves brother. 

[Mr Waldo]

3 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

I think we're debating at cross purposes here.

I'm not talking about thought crime, or individuals being prosecuted. I'm talking about individuals suing organisations.

Those big organisations have bias throughout, but especially at the top. It's a natural thing - because we all have our biases - or are you denying that as well?

I'm talking about the police, the justice system, the civil service, major companies and even the sporting authorities, all having to take action to show they're promoting equality. It's no longer acceptable to just do nothing, and just stick by the process that 'the best man gets the job'.

There's a lot of good work being done.

The big ex celtic centre half was very impressive when speaking on sportsound today. That's outstanding. I've never heard that song. I've heard of dave, but that's the first time I've actually listened.

I think we are. 

To me 'unconcious bias' is not a proven fact and people do not act on most of their unconcious thoughts. I think I am getting a bit fed up with 'experts' telling me  'ah. you say that,  but you unconsciously think this, so our a bigot'.  Mind readers that they are.

I agree, organisations taking action on bias can only benefit everyone, and Paul Elliott was excellent today.

[pandarilla]

I think we are. 
To me 'unconcious bias' is not a proven fact and people do not act on most of their unconcious thoughts. I think I am getting a bit fed up with 'experts' telling me  'ah. you say that,  but you unconsciously think this, so our a bigot'.  Mind readers that they are.
I agree, organisations taking action on bias can only benefit everyone, and Paul Elliott was excellent today.

No-one is calling you a bigot.

Jon stewart is a lefty Liberal in America. He's as far from a bigot as you get, but he recognised his organisation had unconscious bias in their hiring policies. We're talking about institutions and power structures - not individuals.

[IrishBhoy]

25 minutes ago, Mr Waldo said:

I think we are. 

To me 'unconcious bias' is not a proven fact and people do not act on most of their unconcious thoughts. I think I am getting a bit fed up with 'experts' telling me  'ah. you say that,  but you unconsciously think this, so our a bigot'.  Mind readers that they are.

I agree, organisations taking action on bias can only benefit everyone, and Paul Elliott was excellent today.

‘Unconscious bias’ is hardwired into the brain of every single person on the planet, it’s not something you can deny. It manifests through your life experience; things you read, videos you watch, certain events in your life etc. Do a quick google search and read a bit about it, there’s plenty of stuff online. 
 

I don’t think anyone is saying that having an unconscious bias towards a certain group makes you a bigot or a racist, but becoming aware that you do have a bias is the first thing that needs to happen. 

[Pull My Strings]

7 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

No-one is calling you a bigot.

Jon stewart is a lefty Liberal in America. He's as far from a bigot as you get, but he recognised his organisation had unconscious bias in their hiring policies. We're talking about institutions and power structures - not individuals.

That's a total cop-out. There's unconscious bias in individuals and there's conscious bias in individuals. Organisational bias is the direct result of the bias of individuals within that organisation. It doesn't exist otherwise.

[Pull My Strings]

6 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

‘Unconscious bias’ is hardwired into the brain of every single person on the planet, it’s not something you can deny. It manifests through your life experience; things you read, videos you watch, certain events in your life etc. Do a quick google search and read a bit about it, there’s plenty of stuff online. 
 

I don’t think anyone is saying that having an unconscious bias towards a certain group makes you a bigot or a racist, but becoming aware that you do have a bias is the first thing that needs to happen. 

It makes you at least a bit racist.

[Mr Waldo]

16 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

No-one is calling you a bigot.

Jon stewart is a lefty Liberal in America. He's as far from a bigot as you get, but he recognised his organisation had unconscious bias in their hiring policies. We're talking about institutions and power structures - not individuals.

Aye but as part of a big organisation going mandatory Diversity Training, I was !

Love Jon Stewart, his speech to The US Senate on First Responders is one of the finest I have ever heard. It lasts 9m11s. Awesome.

[welshbairn]

The fact this conversation is happening at all shows the times they are a-changin'. 

Edited June 13, 2020 by welshbairn

[Mr Waldo]

4 minutes ago, Pull My Strings said:

That's a total cop-out. There's unconscious bias in individuals and there's conscious bias in individuals. Organisational bias is the direct result of the bias of individuals within that organisation. It doesn't exist otherwise.

Ok, even if I accept that,  The Implicite Associasion Test on which it based is, shall we say, not 100% agreed to be accurate. One study says 

that the correlation between implicit bias and discriminatory behavior appears weaker than previously thought. They also conclude that there is very little evidence that changes in implicit bias have anything to do with changes in a person’s behavior. These findings, they write, “produce a challenge for this area of research"

[Mr Waldo]

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

The fact this conversation is happening at all shows the times they are a-changin'. 

The fact it is conversation and not a finger pointing, shouting match, yes.

As part of my job, I've  been discussing this for a while - but don't get me started on 'trigger warnings' and 'safe spaces'

[IrishBhoy]

19 minutes ago, Pull My Strings said:

It makes you at least a bit racist.

Does it though? The environment you are brought up in can affect your unconscious mind. If outwardly you were the most accepting person to walk the planet, would it be fair to call you a racist because of a cognitive bias that’s deep rooted into your brain. 

[Public menace]

Heard this song a few weeks ago and it does a good job of explaining some injustices black people face in Britain that I would imagine would sail over most white peoples head. Especially the part about African countries being named after their biggest exports e.g. Ivory Coast.  I will admit it was something I hadn’t realised but is obvious now. 
 
 

Never heard this song before. Amazing.

Cheers for posting [emoji106]

[Bairnardo]

Generally happy to speak out against racism and discrimination, in any form.

Also happy to admit that sometimes I might have a reflex thought on something that makes me go "hold on, that's not right. My instincts are telling me something that I know isnt right here". I then have to overcome that thought because its discriminatory.

Unconscious bias exists in the minds of all humans. Most probably because we are still just a fucking animal shat onto a spinning ball of rock same as a lion or a cockroach is. The difference is if you can identify that it's actually wrong and your human instinct has betrayed the person you want to be on each occassion.

I cant really think of an example of my own off hand, but I think as a general example, if you were going for a pish and you seen someone that you were sure was a trans woman going into the ladies, you might look twice, feel a bit shocked. Then you have two choices. Overrule that reaction with your own code of morals and decency, or embrace and accept it and most likely be a bigot. An instant reflex thought in your mind cant be help, your actions thereafter can.

[itzdrk]

There does have to be a part of the debate that acknowledges that Scotland is a vastly white nation (90%+?), while what we are doing just now isn't enough, we have an overwhelming amount of white people and it's entirety possible that if all the managers were Scottish they could all be white.

There is work to be done but we also need to improve on the number of BAME players actually playing football, I don't have any stats on this but we must be producing a very small amount of players.  

[Bairnardo]

16 minutes ago, itzdrk said:

There does have to be a part of the debate that acknowledges that Scotland is a vastly white nation (90%+?), while what we are doing just now isn't enough, we have an overwhelming amount of white people and it's entirety possible that if all the managers were Scottish they could all be white.

There is work to be done but we also need to improve on the number of BAME players actually playing football, I don't have any stats on this but we must be producing a very small amount of players.  

There maybe should be an auditing procedure after every appointment. Total transparency. Where did you advertise, who did you approach and why, who applied, how did you select the interviewees etc. It would be a good data gathering of who is actually applying for jobs. At that point if we see a large number of BAME applicants yet hardly any interviews you might deduce theres a problem to be solved. 

[itzdrk]

Just now, Bairnardo said:

There maybe should be an auditing procedure after every appointment. Total transparency. Where did you advertise, who did you approach and why, who applied, how did you select the interviewees etc. It would be a good data gathering of who is actually applying for jobs. At that point if we see a large number of BAME applicants yet hardly any interviews you might deduce theres a problem to be solved. 

Yes that does sound decent enough and should show clubs working to proper process. 

Something did come to mind though, back when Ayr United had got rid of Mark Roberts we were going through our hiring process, we had got down to our final two candidates in Billy Stark and Jimmy Calderwood (what a choice ) and it was looking very likely that the job would go to Stark when a phonecall came in from Neil Lennon suggesting that Ian McCall may be a good fit for the job, he was and he got it. 

That would look pretty bad under that criteria if it was Kevin Harper instead of Billy Stark so not sure what they would need to do to allow for things like that.