Sportsound Watch

[nofixedability]

They’ve done well to book someone thicker than McCann in the moron from Motherwell.

[DA Baracus]

Sigh. They're once again conflating ambition with money. Kelty and Brora are seemingly progressive and ambitious clubs, more so than some others who are 'stagnating' and get '10 fans through the door'.

Gretna were ambitious. Rangers were too.

So were Dundee, Livingston, Dunfermline, Hearts, Dundee again etc.

[kingjoey]

The one thing that hasn’t been discussed on today’s programme, or indeed ever, is what shambles we will be left with in the top league if this reconstruction goes through. Splitting after 26 games will undoubtedly have so many meaningless games, really meaningless games, in the bottom 8 section of teams. This has just been ignored because we have to “save” Hearts and Partick Thistle, forget about Stranraer because everybody else seems to have, and bugger everyone else. Also, the rules of the pyramid system at the bottom of League 2 seem to have been rewritten over the last couple of months. There was never any divine right for either Brora or Kelty to be promoted to League 2, and certainly both of them would never ever have been in League 2 next season. The way both of these clubs are talking is pie in the sky.  

[ropy]

39 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

The one thing that hasn’t been discussed on today’s programme, or indeed ever, is what shambles we will be left with in the top league if this reconstruction goes through. Splitting after 26 games will undoubtedly have so many meaningless games, really meaningless games, in the bottom 8 section of teams. This has just been ignored because we have to “save” Hearts and Partick Thistle, forget about Stranraer because everybody else seems to have, and bugger everyone else. Also, the rules of the pyramid system at the bottom of League 2 seem to have been rewritten over the last couple of months. There was never any divine right for either Brora or Kelty to be promoted to League 2, and certainly both of them would never ever have been in League 2 next season. The way both of these clubs are talking is pie in the sky.  

What if it is a bottom 6?
 

Doesnt matter, still rubbish.

[pandarilla]

No. But I do not make an assumption because they are from a certain part of society without evidence.
I do neither, until there is scientific evidence that 'unconscious bias' exists at any level to the extent that, for example, can be used in a court of law , I will not be convinced. 
There is no proven way for anyone to resolve 'unconscious bias', it's unconscious, if you go there,  you a ghost hunting. If I am staggering home and cross the road because I see a group of young hoodies, is that  my 'unconscious bias? Is that bad?
It doesn't  matter what you think, it matters what you do and say, so give examples of actual bias, or racism, or sexism, or bigotry and I will stand alongside you to destroy it.
I do not come to any conclusions of 'bame' people except that they are different from non'bame' people.  Or are, according to you, if they are not, why do you group them different from 'people'?
Collectivism, to me, is the cause of many, many problems..

I think the evidence you're looking for is already court-worthy, in your terms. Laws are written to reflect this, and organisations all understand that they have to take this shit seriously.

There's a clear discrepancy in numerous aspects of our society in terms of bame involvement at the higher levels. Football is no different.

If you want to remain convinced then that's your prerogative. But fortunately society has realised that this is a genuine problem, and is (slowly) starting to reform practices accordingly. Some of them are doing this because they believe it to be the right thing to do, but many will be acting because they know they'll get sued if they don't - and they'll lose if they can't show they're taking action.

No-one is talking about actual racists here. Those people still exist, but their existence in respectable society is becoming more and more difficult. We're talking about unconscious bias. It's a real thing, whether you believe in it or not.

[Diamonds are Forever]

1 hour ago, DA Baracus said:

Sigh. They're once again conflating ambition with money. Kelty and Brora are seemingly progressive and ambitious clubs, more so than some others who are 'stagnating' and get '10 fans through the door'.

Gretna were ambitious. Rangers were too.

So were Dundee, Livingston, Dunfermline, Hearts, Dundee again etc.

 

There is a weird thing with the media and pundits in Scotland. They constantly encourage and praise clubs for showing 'ambition', all the way to the point where they implode, where they then bemoan how these clubs can be so poorly run and why they aren't living within their means.

No matter how many times they see the same pattern they never seem to learn.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Diamonds are Forever

[kingjoey]

23 minutes ago, ropy said:

What if it is a bottom 6?
 

Doesnt matter, still rubbish.

Because the number of games played by the 8 teams after the split will total 40, and the total for the 6 will be 36, it will definitely be a bottom 8.

[ropy]

7 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

Because the number of games played by the 8 teams after the split will total 40, and the total for the 6 will be 36, it will definitely be a bottom 8.

But 8 clubs battling for a clutch of European spots is better than 8 clubs trying to avoid 1 relegation spot (and a play off).

The main point is that 14 doesn’t work as a format.

[HeWhoWalksBehindTheRows]

3 hours ago, virginton said:

What else explains the yawning gulf between the number of BAME players to managers (not to mention senior club and league executives) in the sport? It's not because Neil McCann and John Hughes are God's gift to management, that's for sure.

John Hughes who's assistant manager was Russel Latapy aye?

[rainbowrising]

2 hours ago, tree house tam said:

I don't get this shite about there being loads of black players so there should be loads of black managers. You pick the best guy for the job, or the best that apply for the job that you can afford. If the best candidate for the St Johnstone job is black you're not telling me they aren't going to hire him. Every person connected to that club wants the best for it, so you hire the best you can get no matter what ethnicity. John Barnes was the best candidate when he was hired, they soon realised it was a mistake and fired him, this happens in all walks of life, whichever ethnicity. 

In the NFL for decades great black players were never considered capable of being a quarter back.  The thinking was that a QB required leadership, tactical understanding and great skills in decision making.  Apparently a black player wasnt capable of that. Other positions yes, QB no.  The first black QB to ever start a Super Bowl was Doug Williams.  1988. 

[Mr Waldo]

41 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

I think the evidence you're looking for is already court-worthy, in your terms. Laws are written to reflect this, and organisations all understand that they have to take this shit seriously.

There's a clear discrepancy in numerous aspects of our society in terms of bame involvement at the higher levels. Football is no different.

If you want to remain convinced then that's your prerogative. But fortunately society has realised that this is a genuine problem, and is (slowly) starting to reform practices accordingly. Some of them are doing this because they believe it to be the right thing to do, but many will be acting because they know they'll get sued if they don't - and they'll lose if they can't show they're taking action.

No-one is talking about actual racists here. Those people still exist, but their existence in respectable society is becoming more and more difficult. We're talking about unconscious bias. It's a real thing, whether you believe in it or not.

Well I will look at the Implicit Association Tests that conclude that the correlation between implicate bias and discriminatory behaviour is very weak. And even at that, the 'expert' IAT has been debunked.     It is not what your unconscious (95%)  says, it is what you act upon (5%). 

Laws and sued for an unconscious thought?   I look forward to seeing someone prove that in court.    How very 1984.

Laws and sued for being biased? Thankfully, they are already here.

[invergowrie arab]

2 hours ago, tree house tam said:

Same as you do for any job, character, experience, qualifications and in St Johnstones case, cost. Then after this it's all about profile, can they inspire the local community, can they gel with existing staff etc. The best guy is the guy who ticks all the boxes and then some more.

I couldn't give a f**k about statistics.

Also unconscious bias is a thing that exists but it doesn't in my mind so again, couldn't give a f**k. 

How many minority ethnicities have applied for the Saints job that we know about? Kind of tells you why there aren't enough BAME managers up here.

People who think like you are more dangerous than actual racists 

[kingjoey]

53 minutes ago, ropy said:

But 8 clubs battling for a clutch of European spots is better than 8 clubs trying to avoid 1 relegation spot (and a play off).

I realise that, but in real life there is no way that the SPFL are going to have Rangers and Celtic playing four extra games in case they have a run in Europe, like this year.

[tree house tam]

14 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

People who think like you are more dangerous than actual racists 

I know this.

[IrishBhoy]

3 hours ago, tree house tam said:

Also unconscious bias is a thing that exists but it doesn't in my mind so again, couldn't give a f**k. 

That’s an excellent statement. Walk me through how you are aware that unconscious bias doesn’t exist in your mind? 
 

I get the feeling there is a lot of stuff that doesn’t exist in your mind. 

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, HeWhoWalksBehindTheRows said:

John Hughes who's assistant manager was Russel Latapy aye?

Erm yes - because nothing dispels the myth of racism quite like a black man being employed in a subordinate role.

[Monkey Tennis]

3 hours ago, tree house tam said:

Same as you do for any job, character, experience, qualifications and in St Johnstones case, cost. Then after this it's all about profile, can they inspire the local community, can they gel with existing staff etc. The best guy is the guy who ticks all the boxes and then some more.

I couldn't give a f**k about statistics.

Also unconscious bias is a thing that exists but it doesn't in my mind so again, couldn't give a f**k. 

How many minority ethnicities have applied for the Saints job that we know about? Kind of tells you why there aren't enough BAME managers up here.

FFS, this isn't about a specific post at a specific time, and those who apply for it.

It's about systemic bias.

Think how it works in football.  Certain players are identified as possessing the right qualities and given things like roles with youth teams, and encouragement to get coaching badges.   On finishing playing, they get backroom posts somewhere and in time enter the market for more senior managerial positions.

There are many stages for biases to enter the equation before an interview for manager at a top flight club might come into it.  Unless it seems feasible to you that fewer black players really do have such qualities, it figures that there are systemic flaws that allow certain races to be badly underrepresented.

[Thistle_do_nicely]

(please don't hurt me)

Something that might be a barrier to appointing a black or ethnic minority manager for clubs, even if they're qualified by playing experience and have the right badges etc. - if it starts to go tit's up and they get punted from the club, would certain chairmen be afraid of them going to the media and saying they got sacked due to their ethnicity?

I'm not saying that's right by any means, or even that it's what goes on, but might that be a perception problem that plays a part*? Managers are generally pretty keen to protect their reputation if a spell in charge goes wrong no matter what they look like.

I guess it maybe falls down in that any manager that does do so could see themselves (no pun intended) blacklisted from jobs in the future, but it might be why so few get given a chance in the first place... also sort of raises another question in my mind about the homogeniety of owner's/directors of clubs being mainly white as the real root of the problem.

Start getting more diversity in the boardroom and you'll start getting more diversity on the coaching staff, maybe?

*i really like that alliteration tbh

Edited June 13, 2020 by Thistle_do_nicely

[Monkey Tennis]

9 minutes ago, Thistle_do_nicely said:

 also sort of raises another question in my mind about the homogeniety of owner's/directors of clubs being mainly white as the real root of the problem.

Start getting more diversity in the boardroom and you'll start getting more diversity on the coaching staff, maybe?

I'm sure you're right. 

Again though, this is part of the same thing.  Fewer black people attain the status and wealth that would often be seen as prerequisites for inhabiting a football boardroom, than is proportionate. 

If such roles are less appealing to those from certain backgrounds who do fit the bill, then why is that?

Once more, unless there's a genuine belief that some races are less suited to achieving in this way than others, it seems likely that other forces are at play.

[ropy]

1 hour ago, kingjoey said:

I realise that, but in real life there is no way that the SPFL are going to have Rangers and Celtic playing four extra games in case they have a run in Europe, like this year.

Which is why it is all nonsense and certainly not for the good of Scottish football