Faslane - Job security

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

Fact is the SNP are what this independence proposal was all about

Aye for you.

Wasn't for me though.

[chomp my root]

When I was in the Navy, I fucking hated working in Faslane.

Helensburgh was a shite run ashore as well.

Sorry - carry on folks.

No bad runs mate, just bad runners

Admittedly its no Singers

[renton]

Really amusing stuff from the nats. "You're thick". "Having a meltdown". That'll show him

Mad Wullie - Compare social media use in Egypt with Scotland and it's a comparable situation apparently.

Fact is the SNP are what this independence proposal was all about and the Nats can't even admit that. It was a confused, disordered mess.

The defence position was probably the most salient example of this.

Actually, it wasn't. The proposed force levels for an independent Scotland were reasonable: 2 major surface combatants increasing to 5 by 2020, a number of smaller OPVs. Operate roughly 18-20 Eurofighter Typhoons out of Lossiemouth, reinstate the maritime patrol aircraft requirement. An army force around 10-12,000 with deployable brigade headquarters a sa mixture of light and mechanised infantry with lgiht armour support. Combined HQ at Faslane (which for the three services would've offset the direct trident 'job losses'. We would, as a matter of routine have ended up co-operating and excersizing with other north atlantic nations, like Norway and Iceland. NATO membership was a basic given.

say what you like about the other compromises in the SNP vision, but defence was not exactly top of everyone's priority anyway, but for the record, the actual proposals were measured and sensible.

[Banterous]

Actually, it wasn't. The proposed force levels for an independent Scotland were reasonable: 2 major surface combatants increasing to 5 by 2020, a number of smaller OPVs. Operate roughly 18-20 Eurofighter Typhoons out of Lossiemouth, reinstate the maritime patrol aircraft requirement. An army force around 10-12,000 with deployable brigade headquarters a sa mixture of light and mechanised infantry with lgiht armour support. Combined HQ at Faslane (which for the three services would've offset the direct trident 'job losses'. We would, as a matter of routine have ended up co-operating and excersizing with other north atlantic nations, like Norway and Iceland. NATO membership was a basic given.

say what you like about the other compromises in the SNP vision, but defence was not exactly top of everyone's priority anyway, but for the record, the actual proposals were measured and sensible.

Show me evidence that NATO membership had been agreed.

The rest of your post is based around the SNP's proposals and yes they are balanced if they ever actually came to pass which they won't but the question is how they'd have achieved this. The other issue was the removal of nuclear missiles which Salmond said was 5 years and that was being challenged too. Nope it was a mess and a shambles but something we don't have to worry about fortunately

Unfortunately I have to quote from the media conspiratorial evil empire but read below:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10244873/Nato-blow-to-SNPs-defence-plans-for-independent-Scotland.html

[strichener]

Show me evidence that NATO membership had been agreed.

The rest of your post is based around the SNP's proposals and yes they are balanced if they ever actually came to pass which they won't but the question is how they'd have achieved this. The other issue was the removal of nuclear missiles which Salmond said was 5 years and that was being challenged too. Nope it was a mess and a shambles but something we don't have to worry about fortunately

Fact is the SNP are what this independence proposal was all about and the Nats can't even admit that. It was a confused, disordered mess.

The defence position was probably the most salient example of this.

Whilst I am aware that this is a football forum, the number of times you move the goal posts is without precedent.

[renton]

Show me evidence that NATO membership had been agreed.

The rest of your post is based around the SNP's proposals and yes they are balanced if they ever actually came to pass which they won't but the question is how they'd have achieved this. The other issue was the removal of nuclear missiles which Salmond said was 5 years and that was being challenged too. Nope it was a mess and a shambles but something we don't have to worry about fortunately

Unfortunately I have to quote from the media conspiratorial evil empire but read below:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10244873/Nato-blow-to-SNPs-defence-plans-for-independent-Scotland.html

Actually, there is an underpsend in terms of what scotland puts into the UK pot for defence and what assets are actually based in Scotland, affording the SNP defence plans wasn't actually an issue.

The missiles were going, that much is clear, time frames are something else however, and were negotiable. Striking a deal on basing Trident doesn't mean us having to keep them, it meant coming to an agreed time frame with the UK for where they were going to be, hence time frame was negotiable.

So no, the plans weren't a mess.

[BigMartyn86]

No bad runs mate, just bad runners

Admittedly its no Singers

Still a shite run though. Pubs are shutting down all over the town and are the majority of the time empty. I remember first going out when I joined the Ramsey in 06 and the majority of places where heaving on a Tuesday night. Fast forward a few years later and the majority of pubs are shut down. The sad reality is that no one on the base can be bothered going out. Even the new "super mess" what they built is empty. The majority of people if they can drive would rather go home. I used to prefer doing the 100 mile round trip from Alloa most days and I knew some lads that would travel from Dundee, Perth, Rosyth and Edinburgh.

If Faslane shutdown I'd reckon it'd have a next to nothing impact on Helensburgh. The majority of the workforce are bussed in from all over Inverclyde and Dumbartonshire with only a handful staying in Helensburgh.

[Banterous]

Actually, there is an underpsend in terms of what scotland puts into the UK pot for defence and what assets are actually based in Scotland, affording the SNP defence plans wasn't actually an issue.

The missiles were going, that much is clear, time frames are something else however, and were negotiable. Striking a deal on basing Trident doesn't mean us having to keep them, it meant coming to an agreed time frame with the UK for where they were going to be, hence time frame was negotiable.

So no, the plans weren't a mess.

So there was nothing agreed?

NATO membership not a given then?

Yep they WERE a mess

[BigMartyn86]

I'd even go as far as saying that if the UK didn't have or didn't plan to renew trident then Faslane would probably be on the verge of shutting down as well. There's only a small amount of jobs which actually have anything to do with trident. The rest are all general jobs which you get in every dockyard in the world.

[chomp my root]

Still a shite run though. Pubs are shutting down all over the town and are the majority of the time empty. I remember first going out when I joined the Ramsey in 06 and the majority of places where heaving on a Tuesday night. Fast forward a few years later and the majority of pubs are shut down. The sad reality is that no one on the base can be bothered going out. Even the new "super mess" what they built is empty. The majority of people if they can drive would rather go home. I used to prefer doing the 100 mile round trip from Alloa most days and I knew some lads that would travel from Dundee, Perth, Rosyth and Edinburgh.

If Faslane shutdown I'd reckon it'd have a next to nothing impact on Helensburgh. The majority of the workforce are bussed in from all over Inverclyde and Dumbartonshire with only a handful staying in Helensburgh.

I agree mate and for most of my time I did the daily fast transit from Rosyth. If Fassers did shut down it would have a huge impact locally, its the biggest employer in the area, maybe not Helensburgh itself but the whole surrounding area.

[Banterous]

I'd even go as far as saying that if the UK didn't have or didn't plan to renew trident then Faslane would probably be on the verge of shutting down as well. There's only a small amount of jobs which actually have anything to do with trident. The rest are all general jobs which you get in every dockyard in the world.

Well when you consider the absolute shambles that the SNP's defence policy was, I don't think the prospects for these generic dockyard jobs looked too good either but that's no longer a worry

[AberdeenBud]

Well when you consider the absolute shambles that the SNP's defence policy was, I don't think the prospects for these generic dockyard jobs looked too good either but that's no longer a worry

Renton's just handed you yer arse over this "shambles".

Surely can't be a single poster on here who takes this clown seriously?

[renton]

So there was nothing agreed?

NATO membership not a given then?

Yep they WERE a mess

UK wouldn't pre-negotiate, so how could anything be agreed?

NATO membership wa sa given, basing rights WOULD have been sorted out (even if it meant storing the missiles at the US Trident base on the east coast of the States, probably the only viable alternative in the short term). It was in no one's best interests to keep Scotland out of NATO.

None of this can be descirbed as a mess, the SNp wer eentirely consistent on the terms of engagement regarding the Trident system, and any deal being done would be on time frames of removal.

[welshbairn]

Surely can't be a single poster on here who takes this clown seriously?

Is there a table anywhere showing the poster most people have on ignore?

[Banterous]

UK wouldn't pre-negotiate, so how could anything be agreed?

NATO membership wa sa given, basing rights WOULD have been sorted out (even if it meant storing the missiles at the US Trident base on the east coast of the States, probably the only viable alternative in the short term). It was in no one's best interests to keep Scotland out of NATO.

None of this can be descirbed as a mess, the SNp wer eentirely consistent on the terms of engagement regarding the Trident system, and any deal being done would be on time frames of removal.

Exactly. So it's all part of the negotiations that Salmond described as consisting of "this will happen and WM will agree to this". There was no Plan B.

No it wasn't. That newspaper article is as valid as anything you've written and in fact more so because it was written by someone who was informed. The Nats who listened to a fantasist believe that someone comes on and contradicts facts (not supposition or assumptions) has some kind of authority which you don't.

As for "interests", this all comes down to assumptions doesn't it? Again no contingency and that's why the referendum went the right way.

It was a complete and utter mess that assumed and didn't actually provide a list of "what if's". Like I say, that's no longer relevant

[strichener]

Exactly. So it's all part of the negotiations that Salmond described as consisting of "this will happen and WM will agree to this". There was no Plan B.

No it wasn't. That newspaper article is as valid as anything you've written and in fact more so because it was written by someone who was informed. The Nats who listened to a fantasist believe that someone comes on and contradicts facts (not supposition or assumptions) has some kind of authority which you don't.

As for "interests", this all comes down to assumptions doesn't it? Again no contingency and that's why the referendum went the right way.

It was a complete and utter mess that assumed and didn't actually provide a list of "what if's". Like I say, that's no longer relevant

Imagine. What if you kept your promise to leave this sub-forum. Where would I go for my daily amusement??

[Banterous]

Imagine. What if you kept your promise to leave this sub-forum. Where would I go for my daily amusement??

Yep the punctuation marks emphasise it.

It's typical listening to the nats coming back with "was in the best interests of" "this would have happened" and "they would have" especially that comforting use of the past tense

[Banterous]

Is there a table anywhere showing the poster most people have on ignore?

probably a list of No voting posters but that's the nats position. Ignore and don't engage because we're always right in spite of basic and fundamental issues that have never been fully addressed. please ignore me

[renton]

Exactly. So it's all part of the negotiations that Salmond described as consisting of "this will happen and WM will agree to this". There was no Plan B.

No it wasn't. That newspaper article is as valid as anything you've written and in fact more so because it was written by someone who was informed. The Nats who listened to a fantasist believe that someone comes on and contradicts facts (not supposition or assumptions) has some kind of authority which you don't.

As for "interests", this all comes down to assumptions doesn't it? Again no contingency and that's why the referendum went the right way.

It was a complete and utter mess that assumed and didn't actually provide a list of "what if's". Like I say, that's no longer relevant

Sigh.

If the UK won't prenegotiate then Scotland can not make promises before the event. This is an unfortunate consequence of the anthropomorthic arrow of time.

This does not make the SNP plans 'a mess' - they can, to the best of their abilities try to establish the likely outcomes of a set of starting conditions. This kind of ciritical reasoning is fairly common place amongst homo sapiens, and indeed some other higher mammals.

Likewise, Cameron, Milliband et al, can not promise anything about the future of the UK, they can only make a reasoned prediction based on a series of starting conditions, their intended stimulus into the system, and of course, their own biases. are they all 'a mess' as well?

What kind of contingencies to NATO memberhsip are there? You are either in, or out. The actual differences in terms of national security are quite slight, a non aligned, non nuclear Scotland would still benefit from bilateral agreements with it's nearest neighbours, hell at the extreme end of that you have the republic of Ireland, who basically rely on the RAF and RN to defend their sea lanes and airspace - because for those organisations not to do so, would endanger the UK, so Ireland, defended by NATO even as it isn't a member.

NATO membership, in the end provides a qualitative boost in armed force readiness, through constantly excersising with other NATO members and developing joint practices. Some non NATO countries align themselves to NATO practices simply to maintain inter-operability.

There are clearly places in the white paper where the UK's position of no negotiation left the Yes campaign weaker. This is not actually one of those.

[Confidemus]

The rest of your post is based around the SNP's proposals and yes they are balanced

Nope it was a mess and a shambles but something we don't have to worry about fortunately