The 2016 US Presidential Election

[pandarilla]

Difficult balancing act.

Genuine economic grievances that have been ignored for too long. But the dog whistle bigotry has to be tackled whatever it is found.

[jmothecat]

Completely agree. Cannot stand this notion we should somehow try to 'understand' racism and homophobia and sexism etc. We need to fight it, argue against it and expose it for what it is.

[dorlomin]

43 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Trump and his ilk have opened up this huge political and social chasm and some/many liberals are suggesting that it's our job to be conciliatory and try to meet these people halfway. 

Clinton won more votes than Trump. 

Her biggest problem by some distance was stay at home voters. That is a fixable problem. Trump is going to have to pull a miracle to carry many of the voters who did switch to him as he is already appointing the people he claimed to be against. 

[John Lambies Doos]

Clinton won more votes than Trump. 

Her biggest problem by some distance was stay at home voters. That is a fixable problem. Trump is going to have to pull a miracle to carry many of the voters who did switch to him as he is already appointing the people he claimed to be against. 

Makes no difference. He won... it was just a game to him, but he won

[WaffenThinMint]

1 hour ago, murphy1970 said:

The normalisation of far right politics is almost complete. Boris the bozo furiously backtracking over Trump when he was (for once in his life) right the 1st time, the guy is utterly mad and unfit for office, Le Pen being invited onto the tv on Remembrance Sunday, I assume Mussolini's grand-daughter had a prior engagement, and Farage being given a platform at every opportunity.

Liberalism is ill served by liberals. They seem to lack the spine to defend the principles they espouse and the Left is badly disoriented and marginalised. We are in for a bumpy ride over the next few years.

Still think it's far too much to call it the "normalisation of far right politics". Again, look at the utter nadir the BNP/NF, Brit First & the rest of the ragbag of bigots find themselves in. You may as well claim that Monster Raving Loony Party type politics is normalised judging by the Five Star's success in Italy & the humiliation in Hungary for the government & the neo-Nazi Jobbik where the Two Tailed Dog Party's highly effective campaign derailed their attempts to scapegoat asylum seekers for being the basket case of the EU despite taking in billions in EU grants, & made them look more like a competent counter to the "establishment" than the official parties of opposition (sounds familiar?)

Finally, there is Iceland, where the Pirate Party came within an ace of power this year, & no far right in sight. This isn't the normalisation of the far right, it's the normalisation of "f**k You!" politics.

The British Left would have been in pole position to capitalise on such a soft to hard right entrenched establishment as we have, which is only "liberal" when it comes to letting the rich do what they want, were they not such a demented rabble of Spanish Civil War and General Strike fetishists even more obsessed with a world that disappeared decades ago than even the Daily Express. The Socialist Workers Party decries Trump's misogyny without a hint of irony, & decries self service tills taking jobs whilst striking a deal to have their rag sold in W H Smith's main stores.

I wouldn't say that Liberalism is ill served by liberals so much as the real ones have all but given up & all that's left are chancers like Mr Cowie who are really Tories but don't want old ladies spitting on them in the street if they came out of their closets.

2 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

If Marine le Pen's FN gets in to power in France I wonder if folk on here will try to justify/excuse that too.

There is a delicious irony to all this. Brexit and Trump gives Marine Le Pen the only hope she ever had of getting in as President of France, as electors may feel she's the only one the current American regime would take seriously (relations between the US and France not being great shakes for some time).

If by some outside chance she does succeeed, this is where the fun will really begin - for the LAST thing Trump & Farage want is an FN run France. They're not only too leftie for them (especially Farage, who apart from his views on the NHS iis essentially a Thatcherite), but worse than that have been moving to the left (in Trump/Farage terms) even more to try & pick up wavering left wing & communist voters that had considered them (remember, hostility to immigration in times of unemployment was traditionally once the reserve of the French left, not the right, where their trade unions were more like medieval guilds). Marine has already said if she gets in she'll try to get some sort of new Entente with Putin in conjunction with the Germans, which would not go down well with Washington.

I also don't see her relations with her Euro Parliament buddles lasting any FN election victory - the various so called "Freedom" Parties may be to the right of UKIP, but they're still very much to the left of the FN, & it'll be impossible for their friendship of convenience to last once French protectionism starts apace.

[welshbairn]

Washington elite takes back the Whitehouse, Reince Priebus appointed Chief of Staff.

[Michael W]

1 hour ago, ThatBoyRonaldo said:

 

Obviously the point of electoral politics is to win and calling half of America racist isn't going to help win an election any time soon, but its utter wishful thinking given the campaign that was ran, to say that implicit (and explicit) racism and sexism were not driving forces of Trump's election. Like Brexit, the reasons are obviously complex but, like Brexit, to say that low-key racism and xenophobia weren't motivating factors for many people's votes seems implausible. As a bald fact explaining the election, it's necessary to say that. There's also the same phenomenon we saw here in Britain around Brexit which is that if you don't call racist speech etc out as racist, you normalise and legitmise it, thus indirectly facilitating violence, abuse, etc etc.

Of course, that doesn't mean progressive politicians should necessarily go around calling Trump voters racist - they need to try to win their votes and that's just the impure nature of politics. There has to be some kind of middle ground though, where we are able to challenge and emphatically reject unacceptable speech/acts, while not alienating people. Difficult ask though.

 

I largely agree with you. 

Without wishing to try and write an exhaustive list of awful comments from Trump, talk of banning muslims and calling Mexicans criminals and rapists were absolutely dreadful, and pandering to a very specific section of society through scapegoating. These remarks were rightly condemned the world over. Racists exist in society, and whipping up tensions will always appease them and buy their votes. It is only right that this is challenged and called for exactly what it is. 

What isn't helpful is branding people "deplorable" for voting for Trump. Yes, some of these people can't wait for the ball to be built (they may be disappointed), but you have plenty of others who just wanted change from a system that had failed them. Instead of challenging their viewpoints as to why it's failed them, it was far too easy to label them racist/sexist/stupid/deplorable and continue to insult them without offering them an alternative. Unsurprisingly, they either turned up at the polls and put two fingers up at Clinton, or just didn't bother at all to go and vote. By all means attack the candidate, but attacking the voters is asking for trouble. 

Greater engagement rather than insults should be the way that progressives go. A few have said it so far, but the progressives won the so-called culture war a long time ago, and it seems as if they now just expect things will always be that way and have stopped trying as a result. When someone disagrees with them, the solution is to shut down debate and label them something derogatory - that needs to change. It alienates people, and leaves them stewing away waiting for the opportune moment to punish the people doing it. 

Clinton was always likely to have a difficult election. 8 years is a long time, and anyone disaffected with Obama was always likely to be seriously considering the Republicans even before a continuity candidate was in place. Add into that a candidate who is unpopular and you need to ensure that you are in a position where you really need to take all possible actions to avoid appealing only to your core voters at the expense of everyone else. That said, she ended up losing to an utter buffoon who has no political experience and who, on several occasions, made statements outlining his complete unsuitability to leading the most powerful country on the planet. Additionally, though Clinton was unpopular, she was still viewed significantly less unfavourably than Trump was.Then you have prominent Republicans criticising Trump (with some refusing to vote for him) and the notable sheer lack of endorsements he managed in the media. Yet despite all of this, he still won. 

[dorlomin]

Clinton failed to get enough of her vote out. Thats on her and her team.
A (relative) smaller number of voters in key states switched to trump. There are good, long standing reasons for a left wing attack the Democrat machine on this as they have failed to do enough for the workers in those areas.
Trump positively wallowed in racist and misogynist language and yet people voted for him, most, virtually all were likely long standing, regular Republican voters and a few others would have been Obama voters who switched in part over his immigration message.

Here are the closest races that went Trump.
Michigan, 0.27%
Obama 2012... Clinton 16
2,564,569 ... 2,264,807 
Romney ... Trump
2,115,256 ... 2,277,914

Wisconsin, 0.93%
Obama ... Clinton
1,620,985 ... 1,383,926
Romney ... Trump
1,407,966 ... 1,411,432

Pennsylvania, 1.24%
Obama ... Clinton
2,990,274 ... 2,817,409
Romney ... Trump
2,890,633 ... 2,680,434

Florida, 1.27%
Obama ... Clinton
4,237,756 ... 4,487,657
Romney ... Trump
4,163,447 ... 4,607,146

With the exception of Florida all are states where Clinton polled worse than Obama.
Trump fell from Romney's numbers in Pennsylvania.

The actual "white working class rage" going over to Trump is a really small part of the story.
Despondent working class not being bothered by Clinton you can have.
But the biggest story is the number of Republicans who voted against their long standing beliefs in free trade and pro business in favour of a message of demonising Muslims, misogyny and anti-immigration.

Republicans have ditched their economics going back to Reagan. Small government? Trump promises them huge government spending. Low regulation, Trump promises them to clamp down on the banks (he wont), free enterprise he promises them Smoot Hawley. But they go for him.

The whole post trump narrative is defined as "Democrats say rude things about racists". Or the "forgotten white working class". Not the Republicans ditching their core economic message for a Nativist big state candidate.

[dorlomin]

 

 

 

[McSpreader]

2 hours ago, jmothecat said:

Completely agree. Cannot stand this notion we should somehow try to 'understand' racism and homophobia and sexism etc. We need to fight it, argue against it and expose it for what it is.

Racism, sexism  and Homophobia is unacceptable but every nation/religion and people have racists. Do you think Arabs, Africans, Chinese, Pakistanis etc , en masse, are any less racist than white Europeans no !......in fact probably more so. In fact I would say White British are amongst the most tolerant peoples in the world. Prejudice seems to be as much a part of the human condition as being left or right handed.

All we can do is set the standards by our own actions. Calling people out is the wrong approach, even though it is the Left's excuse to sanctimoniously rage at the world, as it only leads to false accusations and misunderstandings.

Whilst the left have focused on being virtuous and sanctimonious and holier than though, a mantle the SNP have adopted, hey have lost sight of their true raison d'etre. The SNP have become a party that talks left, acts right, delivers f*ck all and are only concerned with being a bunch of sanctimonious pr*cks .

There will probably not be a party of the left in power in this country for  many decades......but that's mainly because they always  fail the people they were elected to serve. I also blame the EU for mishandling the refugee/immigrant crisis for polarizing opinion. Something else they have to answer for.

 

[EdgarusQPFC]

3 hours ago, McSpreader said:

Racism, sexism  and Homophobia is unacceptable but every nation/religion and people have racists. Do you think Arabs, Africans, Chinese, Pakistanis etc , en masse, are any less racist than white Europeans no !......in fact probably more so. In fact I would say White British are amongst the most tolerant peoples in the world. Prejudice seems to be as much a part of the human condition as being left or right handed.

All we can do is set the standards by our own actions. Calling people out is the wrong approach, even though it is the Left's excuse to sanctimoniously rage at the world, as it only leads to false accusations and misunderstandings.

Whilst the left have focused on being virtuous and sanctimonious and holier than though, a mantle the SNP have adopted, hey have lost sight of their true raison d'etre. The SNP have become a party that talks left, acts right, delivers f*ck all and are only concerned with being a bunch of sanctimonious pr*cks .

There will probably not be a party of the left in power in this country for  many decades......but that's mainly because they always  fail the people they were elected to serve. I also blame the EU for mishandling the refugee/immigrant crisis for polarizing opinion. Something else they have to answer for.

 

We weren't always tho, but i agree that there are vastly more intolerant people out there.

[EdgarusQPFC]

https://mic.com/articles/158995/more-white-women-voted-for-donald-trump-than-for-hillary-clinton#.MnZi6sfwb

53% of White Women voted for Trump, 25% Hispanic and less than 5% Black, TBH im amazed he got any numbers in those demographics.

[RedRob72]

Does Barrack Obama need to take some of the blame here for Trumps election triumph. His eight years in the White House have clearly not had much of an impact if people have decided to move so far away from his political platform? With a strong track record of achievements to show for, over his presidency surely voters would have been happy to endorse a democrat candidate again (even if it was the unpopular Hilary Clinton)?

[THE KING]

3 hours ago, RedRob72 said:

Does Barrack Obama need to take some of the blame here for Trumps election triumph. His eight years in the White House have clearly not had much of an impact if people have decided to move so far away from his political platform? With a strong track record of achievements to show for, over his presidency surely voters would have been happy to endorse a democrat candidate again (even if it was the unpopular Hilary Clinton)?

Obama must be one of the worst Presidents ever, he done nothing and failed to deliver on almost everything he promised.

 

Anyway back in July Michael Moore saw it coming...

http://michaelmoore.com/trumpwillwin/

[pandarilla]

This thread has certainly took a wrong turn.

[THE KING]

Have the Clinton/Obama unity peace mob condemned the rioters yet?

[pandarilla]

Have the Clinton/Obama unity peace mob condemned the rioters yet?

No but they've condemned your pish talking on this forum.

[THE KING]

50 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

No but they've condemned your pish talking on this forum.

Belter!

[Sooky]

Trump in an interview last night saying that same sex marriage was a settled issue by the Supreme Court but that he's going to appoint a massively pro-life judge to send abortion rights back to the state.

Though even if he did, like usual, Justice Kennedy appears to have swung both ways on abortion issues before so I wouldn't even say it's guaranteed it would pass through the court if a case was brought forward.

[ayrmad]

10 hours ago, McSpreader said:

Racism, sexism  and Homophobia is unacceptable but every nation/religion and people have racists. Do you think Arabs, Africans, Chinese, Pakistanis etc , en masse, are any less racist than white Europeans no !......in fact probably more so. In fact I would say White British are amongst the most tolerant peoples in the world. Prejudice seems to be as much a part of the human condition as being left or right handed.

All we can do is set the standards by our own actions. Calling people out is the wrong approach, even though it is the Left's excuse to sanctimoniously rage at the world, as it only leads to false accusations and misunderstandings.

Whilst the left have focused on being virtuous and sanctimonious and holier than though, a mantle the SNP have adopted, hey have lost sight of their true raison d'etre. The SNP have become a party that talks left, acts right, delivers f*ck all and are only concerned with being a bunch of sanctimonious pr*cks .

There will probably not be a party of the left in power in this country for  many decades......but that's mainly because they always  fail the people they were elected to serve. I also blame the EU for mishandling the refugee/immigrant crisis for polarizing opinion. Something else they have to answer for.

 

India Pakistan is far far worse than our own scourge IMHO.

I like tolerance but I'm certainly no fan of our current path of bending over backwards so as not to offend those fannies that appear to get offended on others behalf when the others don't really appear offended in the slightest, it fucking offends me when I read seasons greetings on every Council Decoration in Ayr & Prestwick, no, we're celebrating Christmas you bunch of thick bawless self-serving c***s.

I watched quite a few people getting pished celebrating Diwali the other week there, can't remember having any negative feelings or thoughts towards them enjoying themselves.