When will indyref2 happen?

[DI Bruce Robertson]

Why does that matter? People that think for themselves are often not able to define where their political stance lies in traditional spectrums. And political parties are unlikely to accurately sum up an individual's outlook unless they're a sheep that just follows them regardless.

In addition, you'll notice I only mentioned one political party in my question, that was tongue in cheek as I consider UKIP to be far right.


Sent from a dark, dank hellhole.

[ayrmad]

1 hour ago, AyrExile said:

Not sure they are doing what they can in the police or nhs which falls under their remit. Tax raising powers have arrived also which they fail to use. As the previous poster said they just want to avoid making difficult decisions which in the future may come back to haunt them like every govt and instead the tories get blamed for everything. 

Judge our police(even allowing for us paying VAT) and NHS against rUK's since the crunch then come back and tell us who's good and who's bad, IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE

[ayrmad]

38 minutes ago, terracingtam said:

Much as I am against another referendum, for Christ sake just bring it on,  Maybe two No decisions will get through to this bunch of inept fantasists, but i fear not . What then would be the excuse for Indyref 3 I wonder. English interference ruining Police Scotland, unpaid farming subsidies, the collapse of oil prices, the condition of the roads, the unemployment figures, introducing Named Persons etc etc. The British government has a lot to  answer for but at least when there is a democratic referendum that does not go the way they wanted, they just accept the result and get on with it.  

Get on with it, Article 50 is still hiding in Theresa May's handbag as far as I can tell.

[DI Bruce Robertson]

Much as I am against another referendum, for Christ sake just bring it on,  Maybe two No decisions will get through to this bunch of inept fantasists, but i fear not . What then would be the excuse for Indyref 3 I wonder. English interference ruining Police Scotland, unpaid farming subsidies, the collapse of oil prices, the condition of the roads, the unemployment figures, introducing Named Persons etc etc. The British government has a lot to  answer for but at least when there is a democratic referendum that does not go the way they wanted, they just accept the result and get on with it.  

No they haven't, has article 50
been invoked? NO! So, by all means give your opinion but don't lie.


Sent from a dark, dank hellhole.

[John Lambies Doos]

McMinter

[DigOutYourSoul]

Has anyone put forward a reasonable economic argument for the union yet?

Guessing that's a no then. The numbers in the white paper the first time round were questionable at best and now they've been blown out the water by the oil price slump the 'scaremongers' questioned in 2014. Nobody without blinkers on could have looked at those numbers and thought they were reasonable.

I'm yet to hear a decent argument for independence and still think for a majority of people it's a decisive factor. That's why I don't think it'll happen and a second Indyref at the moment would be a regretful decision by sturgeon.

[McSpreader]

2 hours ago, DI Bruce Robertson said:

1.  

Loathe as I am to engage with you, what are your politics?
Are you left/centrist/right/UKIP?
I honestly don't think it's possible to gauge where your political affinities lie.


Other than SNP bad, which goes without saying.


Sent from a dark, dank hellhole.

Surely engaging is the progressive and reasonable course of action?

My politics stem from growing up in an extreme left wing / SWP household so I know only too well how deluded people can be about politics. I know full well how people can take any situation and twist it to fit in with their delusions. I grew up marching against fascists by being part of The Anti-Nazi League and detest extremism in any form.

I have left leaning views regarding education and health provision and believe in helping the vulnerable in society I believe in equality for gender, race and ethnicity and sexual orientation.  but I believe ambition, entrepreneurialism, free market capitalism. Business creates wealth, jobs and prosperity in a way Govt's never can. I believe in small government, devolved power to the regions and localism. I believe in the pre-eminence of The Union, the most successful, peaceful and prosperous collection of countries anywhere in the world . I believe in individualism, creativity free speech and free expression. I believe in the rule of law. I believe in secularism and rolling back the influence of religion in society.

Make of that, and all it's inherent contradictions, what you will.  I don't know if there's a label that fits but I'm sure someone will find one because people get scared when they can't find a box to push you in.

 

Edited September 3, 2016 by McSpreader

[AyrExile]

11 minutes ago, ayrmad said:

Judge our police(even allowing for us paying VAT) and NHS against rUK's since the crunch then come back and tell us who's good and who's bad, IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE

Will avoid the defection here. The original point was about budget cuts. How many policeman, foodbank facilities and nurses would 70 odd million pay for. To scream about budget cuts harming us whilst spunking that large sum away through poor decision making isn't very credible. 

[DI Bruce Robertson]

Surely engaging is the progressive and reasonable course of action?

My politics stem from growing up in an extreme left wing / SWP household so I know only too well how deluded people can be about politics. I know full well how people can take any situation and twist it to fit in with their delusions. I grew up marching against fascists by being part of The Anti-Nazi League and detest extremism in any form.

I have left leaning views regarding education and health provision and believe in helping the vulnerable in society I believe in equality for gender, race and ethnicity and sexual orientation.  but I believe ambition, entrepreneurialism, free market capitalism. Business creates wealth, jobs and prosperity in a way Govt's never can. I believe in small government, devolved power to the regions and localism. I believe in the pre-eminence of The Union, the most successful, peaceful and prosperous collection of countries anywhere in the world . I believe in individualism, creativity free speech and free expression. I believe in the rule of law. I believe in secularism and rolling back the influence of religion in society.

Make of that, and all it's inherent contradictions, what you will.  I don't know if there's a label that fits but I'm sure someone will find one because people get scared when they can't find a box to push you in.

 

Thanks for your detailed and well thought out response, it's much appreciated. Now, here is the real cruncher, which political party most meets your politics?
I'm guessing, given your tendencies for anti-extremism, preclude UKIP? Your belief in small government excludes socialist Labour values, so, at a push, admittedly, it's a push. I'll exclude Labour?
Helping the vulnerable in society, with no doubt excludes the Tories.
Admittedly, your train of thought & politics is a series of contradictions, so unless you find a party who meets all your needs, who would you vote for?










M




Sent from a dark, dank hellhole.

[North Terrace Gazza]

Surely engaging is the progressive and reasonable course of action?

My politics stem from growing up in an extreme left wing / SWP household so I know only too well how deluded people can be about politics. I know full well how people can take any situation and twist it to fit in with their delusions. I grew up marching against fascists by being part of The Anti-Nazi League and detest extremism in any form.

I have left leaning views regarding education and health provision and believe in helping the vulnerable in society I believe in equality for gender, race and ethnicity and sexual orientation.  but I believe ambition, entrepreneurialism, free market capitalism. Business creates wealth, jobs and prosperity in a way Govt's never can. I believe in small government, devolved power to the regions and localism. I believe in the pre-eminence of The Union, the most successful, peaceful and prosperous collection of countries anywhere in the world . I believe in individualism, creativity free speech and free expression. I believe in the rule of law. I believe in secularism and rolling back the influence of religion in society.

Make of that, and all it's inherent contradictions, what you will.  I don't know if there's a label that fits but I'm sure someone will find one because people get scared when they can't find a box to push you in.

 

Sounds like a Liberal to me, not a bad choice btw.

[McSpreader]

26 minutes ago, DI Bruce Robertson said:

Thanks for your detailed and well thought out response, it's much appreciated. Now, here is the real cruncher, which political party most meets your politics?
I'm guessing, given your tendencies for anti-extremism, preclude UKIP? Your belief in small government excludes socialist Labour values, so, at a push, admittedly, it's a push. I'll exclude Labour?
Helping the vulnerable in society, with no doubt excludes the Tories.
Admittedly, your train of thought & politics is a series of contradictions, so unless you find a party who meets all your needs, who would you vote for?










M




Sent from a dark, dank hellhole.

And there you sum up my dilemma.... I don't feel that currently any political party truly fits with my outlook.

That's why referendums are so much easier !

However, I believe that engaging in the democratic process is vitally important and compromises have to be made.

SNP ...Anti Union, too indy focussed, failing Scotland in Holyrood by not getting more from Westminster. Obsessed with the EU. 

Labour.... in disarray , gesture politics, doesn't understand the concept of entrepreneurialism, have lost the electorate

Ukip......... I don't think so! Although I know exactly why they did so well at the last election and it was less about race and more about the disenfranchisement felt by the electorate. I understand doesn't mean I support.

LibDems.... Too wishy washy. Wants to be all things to all men and end up being nothing much at all.

Tories... .... Most likely to get my vote with reservations. Good for business and can govern effectively. Will help the vulnerable . I don't think that is an issue, but are likely to continue to roll back the breadth and depth of state support which is not necessarily a bad thing per se. Should see  us do well on Brexit.

I don't particularly want to be a Tory voter but anything else at the moment would, I fear , be equally as unconscionable given the state of party politics at present.

Edited September 3, 2016 by McSpreader

[McSpreader]

4 minutes ago, North Terrace Gazza said:

 

 

Sounds like a Liberal to me, not a bad choice btw.

 

It does but there is something about the LibDems that doesn't sit well. They're just too smug and self congratulatory for my liking.

[strichener]

Guessing that's a no then. The numbers in the white paper the first time round were questionable at best and now they've been blown out the water by the oil price slump the 'scaremongers' questioned in 2014. Nobody without blinkers on could have looked at those numbers and thought they were reasonable.

I'm yet to hear a decent argument for independence and still think for a majority of people it's a decisive factor. That's why I don't think it'll happen and a second Indyref at the moment would be a regretful decision by sturgeon.

I hear that Norway are running to the IMF for a bailout after the collapse in Oil prices.

Oh, no that's right, they managed their resources prudently and have a rainy day fund that is equivalent to approx. 50% of the UKs entire annual GDP.

[DI Bruce Robertson]

And there you sum up my dilemma.... I don't feel that currently any political party truly fits with my outlook.

That's why referendums are so much easier !

However, I believe that engaging in the democratic process is vitally important and compromises have to be made.

SNP ...Anti Union, too indy focussed, failing Scotland in Holyrood by not getting more from Westminster. Obsessed with the EU. 

Labour.... in disarray , gesture politics, doesn't understand the concept of entrepreneurialism, have lost the electorate

Ukip......... I don't think so! Although I know exactly why they did so well at the last election and it was less about race and more about the disenfranchisement felt by the electorate. I understand doesn't mean I support.

LibDems.... Too wishy washy. Wants to be all things to all men and end up being nothing much at all.

Tories... .... Most likely to get my vote with reservations. Good for business and can govern effectively. Will help the vulnerable . I don't think that is an issue, but are likely to continue to roll back the breadth and depth of state support which is not necessarily a bad thing per se. Should see  us do well on Brexit.

I don't particularly want to be a Tory voter but anything else at the moment would, I fear , be equally as unconscionable given the state of party politics at present.

Tories? Fuckin hell, given your previous statements regarding the vulnerable in Society- how can anyone in sane mind & body think they are the best to help out?


Sent from a dark, dank hellhole.

[capybara]

It does but there is something about the LibDems that doesn't sit well. They're just too smug and self congratulatory for my liking.

You mean the Scottish Liberal and Unionist party.

[capybara]

Not sure how the SNP can be anti Union when they have a Trade Union section. Might not do enough. But not anti.

[DI Bruce Robertson]

I hear that Norway are running to the IMF for a bailout after the collapse in Oil prices.

Oh, no that's right, they managed their resources prudently and have a rainy day fund that is equivalent to approx. 50% of the UKs entire annual GDP.

Unless I'm massively wrong- and it's happened before....once!
Norway's State Oil fund in 2015 achieved the benchmark of earning more in interest / dividends than the entire national expenditure?


Sent from a dark, dank hellhole.

[John Lambies Doos]

You just got to feel sorry for the servile uooons on these pages.
And they call themselves Scottish ha ha

[ayrmad]

2 hours ago, AyrExile said:

Will avoid the defection here. The original point was about budget cuts. How many policeman, foodbank facilities and nurses would 70 odd million pay for. To scream about budget cuts harming us whilst spunking that large sum away through poor decision making isn't very credible. 

What deflection, our police numbers have increased in that period while England and Wales's numbers have dropped dramatically, we get cash based on their spend, we're doing ok.

We'll not even bother with the NHS as the disparity in what we get is even greater.

As for us wasting 70 million, not sure what your on about but I'm sure Westminster have lost £1billion down the sofa never mind the many billions they've wasted.

What could we do with 50 times that 70 million that we're being charged for HS2?

No doubt we'll be charged £350 million for our share of London Super Sewer as well if they can bring it in anywhere near budget or it'll be another 50 times the 70 like HS2.

If you keep bending over the table I'm sure I can provide examples where Westminster has shagged your arse without informing you.

Edited September 3, 2016 by ayrmad

[McSpreader]

1 hour ago, DI Bruce Robertson said:

Tories? Fuckin hell, given your previous statements regarding the vulnerable in Society- how can anyone in sane mind & body think they are the best to help out?


Sent from a dark, dank hellhole.

Probably because they are  the least likely to trash the economy. You cant help anyone if all the cash has ran out!