When will indyref2 happen?

[DrewDon]

May is terrible, but, IIRC, she had relatively good personal approval ratings when the election was first called. Whilst her campaign was undoubtedly an utter car-crash, Corbyn deserves credit for exposing her shortcomings so effectively over a short period of campaigning time - and also changing perceptions of himself. Whoever inherited the electoral map from Miliband was going to face an uphill challenge just to gain ground in 2020, but Corbyn has arguably exceeded those expectations in just two years and that is with the added complications for Labour posed by Brexit. It is too simplistic just to say 'but Labour lost', IMO. 

[git-intae-thum]

My goodness and he has managed all that despite being despised by the vast majority of his red tory mp's.

This includes most of the new ones from scotland that folk have been daft enough to vote for.

The fact he did not win against the most useless Conservative government in living memory says it all.

A true centre left politician/ party will never be elected to govern the UK.

The media/establishment have brain washed middle England so.

The uk will perpetually be governed by torys. Red and blue.

 

[1320Lichtie]

May is terrible, but, IIRC, she had relatively good personal approval ratings when the election was first called. Whilst her campaign was undoubtedly an utter car-crash, Corbyn deserves credit for exposing her shortcomings so effectively over a short period of campaigning time - and also changing perceptions of himself. Whoever inherited the electoral map from Miliband was going to face an uphill challenge just to gain ground in 2020, but Corbyn has arguably exceeded those expectations in just two years and that is with the added complications for Labour posed by Brexit. It is too simplistic just to say 'but Labour lost', IMO. 

Anyone half decent could've basically achieved what he did. As someone who doesn't really get the Corbyn hype I think that's exactly what he is, a half decent guy running for PM. He's obviously managed to do some things that have helped his image, particularly among younger folk which in turn means he's done slightly better than everyone expected.

The hype around him and his stunts are really making me start to dislike him though. It's so OTT. His comments about Scotland too, he can gtf.

I was at the Stone Roses gig the other night and even the acts there were trying to preach to the crowd about him. Primal Scream and another act. Sick fed up of it all.

[DrewDon]

1 minute ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 

Anyone half decent could've basically achieved what he did. As someone who doesn't really get the Corbyn hype I think that's exactly what he is, a half decent guy running for PM. He's obviously managed to do some things that have helped his image, particularly among younger folk which in turn means he's done slightly better than everyone expected.

The hype around him and his stunts are really making me start to dislike him though. It's so OTT. His comments about Scotland too, he can gtf.

I was at the Stone Roses gig the other night and even the acts there were trying to preach to the crowd about him. Primal Scream and another act. Sick fed up of it all.
 

 

I disagree that virtually anyone half-decent in the PLP could have achieved this. You just can't take 40% of the popular vote for granted. Corbyn's authenticity and the impact of his style of campaigning undoubtedly contributed to this. He specifically has inspired younger voters in a way that I didn't feel possible only a matter of months ago, and that can only be positive. He has also placed Labour in a position to conceivably win the next election, which is a very big first step after the disaster of 2015 - and three years ahead of schedule. We also have to consider that this election very likely would not have taken place without Corbyn, as it was primarily an opportunistic gamble from the Tories based on his perceived weaknesses.

I don't always agree with him and I disagree with him on Scottish independence, but he deserves credit where credit is due. 

[git-intae-thum]

Ffs people.....Labour....cmon are folk gonnae fall for it all again?

[1320Lichtie]

I disagree that virtually anyone half-decent in the PLP could have achieved this. You just can't take 40% of the popular vote for granted. Corbyn's authenticity and the impact of his style of campaigning undoubtedly contributed to this. He specifically has inspired younger voters in a way that I didn't feel possible only a matter of months ago, and that can only be positive. He has also placed Labour in a position to conceivably win the next election, which is a very big first step after the disaster of 2015 - and three years ahead of schedule. We also have to consider that this election very likely would not have taken place without Corbyn, as it was primarily an opportunistic gamble from the Tories based on his perceived weaknesses.

I don't always agree with him and I disagree with him on Scottish independence, but he deserves credit where credit is due. 

 

 

I wasn't meaning from the PLP, my point was basically that for the first time he seems to be a half decent guy, not many politicians come across as normal decent human beings never mind potential PM candidates. He is a normal decent guy, a guy that you can relate to. He'll get out and speak to people on the streets.

 

Think this has lead to everything he's done being hyped up to the extreme. I'm not buying it. I think he's just doing what any potential candidate should be doing. Look at Sturgeon...

 

He has done very well and of course deserves huge credit but not as much as he's got imo. There was a time when I got on board a bit but it's getting tiresome for me now and I can't be arsed with it especially after the GE result.

[pawpar]

3 hours ago, git-intae-thum said:

Ffs people.....Labour....cmon are folk gonnae fall for it all again?

Aye but Jeremy Corbyn will bring Labour back into power and if Scotland doesn't vote Labour in all it's 59 seats then the tories will win again.

Lets be honest come the next General Election there will be a lot of people in Scotland who voted SNP and will go back to Labour who will believe this pish ( not me).

 

If there is a god please do us all a favour and strike down these stupid C***S.

 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

May has lost her big chance. She should have agreed to indyref2 right away and could have really put indy into the long grass. 

Now, we have more time to build a huge Yes movement from grassroots level. Glad the SNP have taken that on-board going by the FM's comments today.

2020 could be just about right.... 

 

You and I have different interpretations on the FM's statement.

 

This wasn't quite a u-turn but looked very much like it was setting up two choices come next year.

 

If there is a soft Brexit then IndyRef2 is dead in the water.

 

If there is a hard Brexit then I think she will press on for IndyRef2.

 

The problem with that strategy is that Davidson will still try to play the IndyRef2 card.

 

Personally I think the SNP need to be a lot more aggressive - they were far too defensive when dealing with IndyRef2.

 

The SNP only have themselves to blame for the current situation - too timid - when the challenge from the Tories was made they ran away from the argument. The Tories turned the GE into a referendum on IndyRef2 - unfortunately only one side was fighting on these terms. If the SNP had met the Tories in this challenge I think they would not have lost independence-supporting voters to Labour.

 

Show that the Scottish Tories are the same set of scumbags as their national party. Let rural constituencies know that the Tories are liars when it comes to helping them - put practical policies in place to meet the concerns of rural constituencies.

 

Go for Labour - expose them for the hypocrites they are.

 

In government - be more radical in their policies - this don't rock the boat safe hands approach does not help - give people something to inspire them to back the SNP.

 

Lastly - bring in big names from outside the SNP in to the independence campaign - people are more likely to believe someone like Henry McLeish than the SNP by themselves.

 

 

 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

 
Well it depends what people are voting Tory for. If they're voting for unionism then a centre right pro-independence party will do nothing to the Tory vote share. It may, however, take further votes from the SNP who are starting to face a starker choice about where they want to position themselves.
 

You could have regional independence parties.

[Loondave1]

Anyone half decent could've basically achieved what he did. As someone who doesn't really get the Corbyn hype I think that's exactly what he is, a half decent guy running for PM. He's obviously managed to do some things that have helped his image, particularly among younger folk which in turn means he's done slightly better than everyone expected.

The hype around him and his stunts are really making me start to dislike him though. It's so OTT. His comments about Scotland too, he can gtf.

I was at the Stone Roses gig the other night and even the acts there were trying to preach to the crowd about him. Primal Scream and another act. Sick fed up of it all.

They are not actually "stunts" though are they.Corbyn is just being himself and people genuinely like him.Hopefuly he won't be flying around in a helicopter anytime soon like some i could mention.

[Paco]

A true centre left politician/ party will never be elected to govern the UK.
The media/establishment have brain washed middle England so.
The uk will perpetually be governed by torys. Red and blue.
 

Literally a handful of seats just three weeks ago from a genuine socialist as PM. If the SNP vote had held, or if Scottish Labour had a competent leader, Corbyn would be PM.

[HTG]

9 hours ago, RedRob72 said:

If that's all it is 'an exercise in repositioning' Sturgeon will remain firmly on the sidelines. It's up to her to convince May that she should have a seat at the Brexit table. A difficult pitch given that she flatly refused any cooperation after June 16 and dived straight in for a 2nd Ref with the mistaken belief that she had gained the upper hand again with regards to Independence in Scotland. She certainly took her eye off the ball concerning Westminster and Europe.

If she's prepared to park IndyRef 2, it's up to Sturgeon to show her real mettle and influencing skills now, and that she truly wishes to be positively involved. I wish she would, I might disagree with her politics but she's undoubtedly a skilled and capable politician.

My guess is that she will spend the next 18 months, sniping & sneering, with very little to offer in terms of 'putting our shoulder to the wheel' as she puts it.

Will the SNP present a different proposition to the Scottish electorate in the latter part of 2018..? I doubt it.

Of course she'll spend the next 18 months on the sidelines. May didn't shove a barrow of cash over the water so she could build a consensusof all the parties. If you paid  any attention at all to tory interviews at the weekend they all said they would build a Brexit for everyone but absolutely none said that they would work with other parties. It just won't happen. The SNP is in the same place as Labour and the Lib Dems. They'll all comment from outside because £1.5bn removes the need to share. 

I'm not sure why you're bothered. You don't want an independent Scotland.  The SNP does. You'll never agree with them. Whenever the period of reflection and consensus building is over you'll find the same or new reasons to object. You'll be the same as every other staunch sort - Loondave and that other troll arsehole included. Nobody needs to reflect on any of you because you'll all bend over and pull your cheeks apart for Westminster. There are folk out there who can be persuaded though. 

[harry94]

2 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Personally I think the SNP need to be a lot more aggressive - they were far too defensive when dealing with IndyRef2.

 

I think this is a lot to do with it. They announced their plans but were too afraid to discuss it so this let the argument be owned by the opposition.

[RedRob72]

Of course she'll spend the next 18 months on the sidelines. May didn't shove a barrow of cash over the water so she could build a consensusof all the parties. If you paid  any attention at all to tory interviews at the weekend they all said they would build a Brexit for everyone but absolutely none said that they would work with other parties. It just won't happen. The SNP is in the same place as Labour and the Lib Dems. They'll all comment from outside because £1.5bn removes the need to share. 
I'm not sure why you're bothered. You don't want an independent Scotland.  The SNP does. You'll never agree with them. Whenever the period of reflection and consensus building is over you'll find the same or new reasons to object. You'll be the same as every other staunch sort - Loondave and that other troll arsehole included. Nobody needs to reflect on any of you because you'll all bend over and pull your cheeks apart for Westminster. There are folk out there who can be persuaded though. 

May will need to take the same medicine as Sturgeon with regards to building a broad consensus across Westminster and Brexit. The electorate have demanded so. Yes this might prove to be very tricky but our current divisions have to come to a head at some point. Only the most capable leaders can deliver this.

[NotThePars]

Becoming more apparent that people on here are hoping Corbyn can't win an election rather than any genuine belief that he can't. If Corbyn couldn't beat an awful Tory campaign in 7 weeks then it's worth pointing out that the Yes campaign couldn't beat a fucking awful Better Together campaign in 2 years.

[NotThePars]

May will need to take the same medicine as Sturgeon with regards to building a broad consensus across Westminster and Brexit. The electorate have demanded so. Yes this might prove to be very tricky but our current divisions have to come to a head at some point. Only the most capable leaders can deliver this.

And yet May's entire history is one of authoritarian tendencies. She hasn't got the capability to lead a broad coalition, she doesn't want to and her tenures as Home Secretary and Prime Minister were so toxic that no right minded politician should do business with her but agitate against until she's replaced with someone less objectionable, racist and downright nasty.

[RedRob72]

And yet May's entire history is one of authoritarian tendencies. She hasn't got the capability to lead a broad coalition, she doesn't want to and her tenures as Home Secretary and Prime Minister were so toxic that no right minded politician should do business with her but agitate against until she's replaced with someone less objectionable, racist and downright nasty.

Yep perhaps uncharted waters for TM, but it's up to her to lead this change, she has no other choice.
Not sure where the racist jibe comes from, but if that's your chat....

[Colkitto]

3 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

You and I have different interpretations on the FM's statement.

 

This wasn't quite a u-turn but looked very much like it was setting up two choices come next year.

 

If there is a soft Brexit then IndyRef2 is dead in the water.

 

If there is a hard Brexit then I think she will press on for IndyRef2.

 

The problem with that strategy is that Davidson will still try to play the IndyRef2 card.

 

Personally I think the SNP need to be a lot more aggressive - they were far too defensive when dealing with IndyRef2.

 

The SNP only have themselves to blame for the current situation - too timid - when the challenge from the Tories was made they ran away from the argument. The Tories turned the GE into a referendum on IndyRef2 - unfortunately only one side was fighting on these terms. If the SNP had met the Tories in this challenge I think they would not have lost independence-supporting voters to Labour.

 

Show that the Scottish Tories are the same set of scumbags as their national party. Let rural constituencies know that the Tories are liars when it comes to helping them - put practical policies in place to meet the concerns of rural constituencies.

 

Go for Labour - expose them for the hypocrites they are.

 

In government - be more radical in their policies - this don't rock the boat safe hands approach does not help - give people something to inspire them to back the SNP.

 

Lastly - bring in big names from outside the SNP in to the independence campaign - people are more likely to believe someone like Henry McLeish than the SNP by themselves.

 

 

 

I'm actually not going to disagree with a lot of that..although I can't see a soft Brexit happening. Back-bench Tories don't want a soft Brexit and May is powerless to do anything about it anyway.

Labour or Corbyn is not an enthusiastic supporter of the EU.

Totally agree with the "Don't rock the boat" approach. It worked in the past, but it's gone now as a tactic.

I've got a feeling the SNP will advance the indy cause through a YES movement and try an separate the political side in both parliaments for the "day jobs" for now.

Wouldn't go for Henry as he hasn't actually come out as an indy supporter. Maybe Angus Robertson or Alex Salmond to lead or play a huge part of building a YES movement? 

 

[John Lambies Doos]

Because of how pish Labour and Milliband were in 2015 AND because of how bad Theresa May was this time round.

Corbyn lost to an absolute clown.

This.
Compared to what the SNP did in 2015. Corbyn did fuk all

[Ira Gaines]

I'm pretty glad that the SNP themselves aren't quite as stupid and dismissive. Since the election, they've seriously upped the attacks on Corbyn and the UK Labour party. Which is good. Shows that if there's a threat they are ready to go for it. Certainly beats the pathetic passive bullshit we've seen from them too many times. Just hope that it doesn't take focus away from the Tories.