When will indyref2 happen?

[The_Kincardine]

10 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

You intentionally tar yes voters with an "ethnic nationalist" brush - something that is simply untrue.

I do tar yes voters with an ethno-nationalist brush and it is (mostly) justified and it embarrases me to do so since I am very proud of Scotland yet deprecate modern-day Yesser Scots.

I have a hefty wager that I vaunt Scotland's role in the world much more than most empty-headed Natters.

[sophia]

6 hours ago, AB de Villiers said:

Best to ignore trolls like him who are clearly posting in bad faith. Debate with the sensible ones.

 

^^^^ 

A quite staggering lack of self awareness from a poster who has run roughshod over this forum abusing and bullying in a quite infantile fashion.

 

[Dons_1988]

I do tar yes voters with an ethno-nationalist brush and it is (mostly) justified and it embarrases me to do so since I am very proud of Scotland yet deprecate modern-day Yesser Scots.

I have a hefty wager that I vaunt Scotland's role in the world much more than most empty-headed Natters.

 

The most vocal in any movement are usually the most extreme, that is the case here. They look a bit silly to me but they’re mostly harmless.

 

I’m sure you would have something to say if unionists were cast as the Union Jack wielding arseholes who battered into George square not long after the no result was announced in 2014.

 

 

[Blootoon87]

I don't and have said so on here hunners of times.
What I hate are the glengarried-up, tartan-clad gonks with their 'f**k the Tories' placards who think they represent Scotland and who deprecate those of us who value our shared sovereignty with England going back more than 400 years.
I am very open to a civic nationalism which embraces the EU freedoms of goods, people, services and capital.  Sadly, the Natters prefer a campaign of hating the English and Tories Oot.  
So my issue is not with an independent Scotland sharing values with the EU but with nasty wee Natters plying their ethno-nationalist campaign of identity and grievance.

Didn't answer my question though. Independent Scotland in the EU or part of Britain outside of it?

[ford prefect]

You know you've won the argument when all people can come up with in response to the yes campaign is "you wear silly clothes and have a banner I don't like" we're in the end game for the UK now. It's only a matter of time. Tick tock

[sjc]

On 02/02/2020 at 11:51, Baxter Parp said:

No, I'm saying Westminster is sovereign and can transfer powers at will.

Yes, much in the same way the Queen has Constitutional powers but can't really use them.....

[Baxter Parp]

Yes, much in the same way the Queen has Constitutional powers but can't really use them.....

Not really, Westminster has ultimate power over the UK and uses it often.

[sjc]

1 minute ago, Baxter Parp said:

5 minutes ago, sjc said:

Yes, much in the same way the Queen has Constitutional powers but can't really use them.....

Not really, Westminster has ultimate power over the UK and uses it often.

Agreed but I wasn't arguing that point, which was, like signing up to the IMF or World Bank for finance, being a Member State of the EU comes with a caveat of rules that must be adhered too regardless of Parliaments constitutional powers. They can remove the State from the EU, yes, but they can't override certain EU Statute as a Member State.

[Guest]

Once again the debate on independence is being hijacked and turned into some sort of Scotland v England grudge match but in reality it's nothing like that and indeed far more simple and easy to understand.

Increasingly the values, needs and views of the Scottish people are becoming further and further detached from their English counterpart, Brexit was a good indication of this in itself and under the current Government we will increasingly see Scotland being treated as a distraction which should be seen and not heard.

The latest proposed move by BJ and his Government to remove the climate change conference from Glasgow and send it South to London is just another example of the complete and utter contempt in which they hold for Scotland.

HS2 will do nothing for Scotland, Heathrow will do nothing for Scotland, further Crossrail projects and add ons will do nothing for Scotland and as the Tories don't require our votes to retain power then we can expect absolutely nothing from them.

Independence is NOT about wearing your kilt and Glengarry and shouting out "1314 ya bass", it's about governing our own country and shaping policy in a way which best suits our citizens from both an Economic and  Cultural perspective, it's about playing to your strengths as opposed to being a region of an inward looking country which doesn't recognise your voice.

Nobody's saying it will have instant success as re-joining with Europe will come with caveats and require sacrifices, however that will be OUR choice to make.

As for the SNP, it won't be a dictatorship, so if people aren't happy with the Governing party there will still be elections and the opportunity to vote in our own Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem, Green or whoever party, but instead of having their strings pulled from London, they will be able to actually run our own country from right here in Edinburgh.

Honestly, what are people afraid of ? Why would any country not want self determination and a right to Govern themselves and make their own decisions ??

I'll never understand those who don't I'm afraid.................

[ICTJohnboy]

1 hour ago, WATTOO said:

Once again the debate on independence is being hijacked and turned into some sort of Scotland v England grudge match but in reality it's nothing like that and indeed far more simple and easy to understand.

Increasingly the values, needs and views of the Scottish people are becoming further and further detached from their English counterpart, Brexit was a good indication of this in itself and under the current Government we will increasingly see Scotland being treated as a distraction which should be seen and not heard.

The latest proposed move by BJ and his Government to remove the climate change conference from Glasgow and send it South to London is just another example of the complete and utter contempt in which they hold for Scotland.

HS2 will do nothing for Scotland, Heathrow will do nothing for Scotland, further Crossrail projects and add ons will do nothing for Scotland and as the Tories don't require our votes to retain power then we can expect absolutely nothing from them.

Independence is NOT about wearing your kilt and Glengarry and shouting out "1314 ya bass", it's about governing our own country and shaping policy in a way which best suits our citizens from both an Economic and  Cultural perspective, it's about playing to your strengths as opposed to being a region of an inward looking country which doesn't recognise your voice.

Nobody's saying it will have instant success as re-joining with Europe will come with caveats and require sacrifices, however that will be OUR choice to make.

As for the SNP, it won't be a dictatorship, so if people aren't happy with the Governing party there will still be elections and the opportunity to vote in our own Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem, Green or whoever party, but instead of having their strings pulled from London, they will be able to actually run our own country from right here in Edinburgh.

Honestly, what are people afraid of ? Why would any country not want self determination and a right to Govern themselves and make their own decisions ??

I'll never understand those who don't I'm afraid.................

 

Brilliant post, Wattoo, that really says it all.

Sorry I'm out of greenies having wasted several red dots last night on that inadequate waste of space, Tarmo Kink - now  masquerading as AB de Villiers.

[Stellaboz]

Thank you @WATTOO that covers exactly what many of us have talked about for years now. 

[Gaz FFC]

1 hour ago, WATTOO said:

Once again the debate on independence is being hijacked and turned into some sort of Scotland v England grudge match but in reality it's nothing like that and indeed far more simple and easy to understand.

Increasingly the values, needs and views of the Scottish people are becoming further and further detached from their English counterpart, Brexit was a good indication of this in itself and under the current Government we will increasingly see Scotland being treated as a distraction which should be seen and not heard.

The latest proposed move by BJ and his Government to remove the climate change conference from Glasgow and send it South to London is just another example of the complete and utter contempt in which they hold for Scotland.

HS2 will do nothing for Scotland, Heathrow will do nothing for Scotland, further Crossrail projects and add ons will do nothing for Scotland and as the Tories don't require our votes to retain power then we can expect absolutely nothing from them.

Independence is NOT about wearing your kilt and Glengarry and shouting out "1314 ya bass", it's about governing our own country and shaping policy in a way which best suits our citizens from both an Economic and  Cultural perspective, it's about playing to your strengths as opposed to being a region of an inward looking country which doesn't recognise your voice.

Nobody's saying it will have instant success as re-joining with Europe will come with caveats and require sacrifices, however that will be OUR choice to make.

As for the SNP, it won't be a dictatorship, so if people aren't happy with the Governing party there will still be elections and the opportunity to vote in our own Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem, Green or whoever party, but instead of having their strings pulled from London, they will be able to actually run our own country from right here in Edinburgh.

Honestly, what are people afraid of ? Why would any country not want self determination and a right to Govern themselves and make their own decisions ??

I'll never understand those who don't I'm afraid.................

Is the answer because we are the people?

[Gaz FFC]

WATTOO ^^^^^

These lovely intellectuals want to explain why breaking up the UK is bad

Edited February 4, 2020 by Gaz FFC

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Gaz FFC said:

Is the answer because we are the people?

It's a sad state of affairs that in the 21st century there's supposedly educated adults choosing their political party and future of their own country based primarily upon the football team which they support.

Sadly, you're probably not far wrong with your assumption.

[tirso]

have to raise a smile now at the idea pro-independence supporters are largely anti-english, claymore handlers. 

In the 80s this might have annoyed.. even had a grain  of truth...Nowadays it sounds like a comfort blanket.  

It's completely normal now for a noticeable majority of people's peers to support scottish self-government.  From eu nationals to people you meet down the pub or in work.  That was not the case for many years.

This is half (or more) of the country in favour and all the complex backgrounds that go with it.  There is no typical supporter of Scottish independence now.  If anything at all, it's the emerging economic managers and workers of all sexes and backgrounds.  I don't know a single person that particularly wants another vote this year.  I see a lot less shouting about it on social media.  There's a low level desire for something better but they have, on the most part, happy enough lives to lead.  They'll vote Yes whenever the time comes.   There's a large quiet Yes vote now. 

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, Snafu said:

Good post but I've been looking for evidence that the COP26 is to be moved from the SECC and can't find any. I'm aware that the COP President was sacked on Friday and has since being taking pot shots at the PM over being utterly clueless and not taking the event at all seriously enough.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/feb/04/sacked-cop-26-chair-claire-oneill-berates-boris-johnson-over-climate-record

 

 

The original article was taken from the FT and related to an interview with O'Neill, who quite obviously has now gone "rogue" !!

 From yesterday's BBC news, although things would appear to have moved on since then.

Venue switch?

But I understand that some of the basics still aren’t in place. It seems the meeting might even be switched away to London from Glasgow because security costs there are much higher.

I’m told the original total cost of the conference signed off by Cabinet was £250m. It is said now to be closer to £450m, with no agreed final budget.

To compound the issue, the prime minister infuriated the Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon by reportedly telling the Conservative conference he didn’t want her "anywhere near” the meeting.

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by WATTOO

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, tirso said:

have to raise a smile now at the idea pro-independence supporters are largely anti-english, claymore handlers. 

In the 80s this might have annoyed.. even had a grain  of truth...Nowadays it sounds like a comfort blanket.  

It's completely normal now for a noticeable majority of people's peers to support scottish self-government.  From eu nationals to people you meet down the pub or in work.  That was not the case for many years.

This is half (or more) of the country in favour and all the complex backgrounds that go with it.  There is no typical supporter of Scottish independence now.  If anything at all, it's the emerging economic managers and workers of all sexes and backgrounds.  I don't know a single person that particularly wants another vote this year.  I see a lot less shouting about it on social media.  There's a low level desire for something better but they have, on the most part, happy enough lives to lead.  They'll vote Yes whenever the time comes.   There's a large quiet Yes vote now. 

Yes, I'm probably part of this group myself. I'm an SNP member however I don't believe now is the right time for another referendum, simply because it's still too close to call and could easily go against Independence which more than likely would be the death knell, certainly for our generation.

From a tactical perspective I believe NS needs to play the long game as I'm convinced a global recession will be coming soon coupled with either serious deflation or contrasting serious inflation which are both horrific negatives for the Government of the day politically, however you look at it.

This of course won't be the fault of either Brexit or the UK Government (although both could quite easily exacerbate the situation due to our reliance on others. namely Trumps USA), however your average punter in the street doesn't know this and of course the opposition parties, whether rightly or wrongly, should be able to capitalise on any further drop in living standards / unemployment to push their own ends, independence in our case.

This is only my personal opinion of course and none of this may occur, however for the future prosperity of this country I can see Independence and realigning with Europe the best option open to us............

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

From yesterday's BBC news, although things would appear to have moved on since then.

Venue switch?

But I understand that some of the basics still aren’t in place. It seems the meeting might even be switched away to London from Glasgow because security costs there are much higher.

I’m told the original total cost of the conference signed off by Cabinet was £250m. It is said now to be closer to £450m, with no agreed final budget.

To compound the issue, the prime minister infuriated the Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon by reportedly telling the Conservative conference he didn’t want her "anywhere near” the meeting.

 

Tbf moving the conference from Glasgow would be a good thing just now, the costs involved and the strain it would put on the Police in Scotland would be huge, even with mutual aid.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Tbf moving the conference from Glasgow would be a good thing just now, the costs involved and the strain it would put on the Police in Scotland would be huge, even with mutual aid.

The UK Gov are still liable for the total bill for the Policing and I don't think it should be underestimated the boost to the local economy that this conference would give, not to mention putting Glasgow on the global map and the associated tourism which could come from it.

[HTG]

15 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

Her homeland is fine.  I live there.  I was out on Saturday in 'that London' in a mixed group of Scots, English, Irish and a Kiwi to watch the egg-chasing and we all had a good laugh and enjoyed the sport.

It really is the brain-dead Natters who want to rip the arse out of the UK and they are, mostly, pathetic wee xenophobes.

If you are happy to suggest that England is "fine" because you happened to have a decent day out at the pub then every single argument you make or word you utter is with the square root of f**k all. 

That said, I was on the AUOB march in Glasgow and the presence of the socialist worker, smash/f**k the tories brigade was far greater than I was comfortable with on a personal level.  Independence is about embracing the society you'll have when you get up the day after it happens. If you want to march for "Tories Out", organise it yourself. 

These people hang out the arse of every protest or populist movement - climate change, indy or whatever. Would prefer they didn't.