When will indyref2 happen?

[Thane of Cawdor]

George Orwell wrote: "England is a family in which the young are generally thwarted and most of the power is in the hands of irresponsible uncles and bedridden aunts. Still it is a family...a family ith the wrong members in control." What kind of family relationship does Scotland have with England? Paternal, fraternal, avuncular, uxorious (great word) etc...or is it abusive?

[Mastermind]

He's just a another fanny desperate to convince himself that indy ref 2 will never happen. Tragic really but still....not to be taken seriously.

We’re six years further forward - what’s the plan for Indyref2?

[Mastermind]

Why is it that every Unionist is deemed a troll? Were 55% of Scotland having bantz back in 2014?

Servile, morons, seething etc

[O'Kelly Isley III]

11 minutes ago, AB de Villiers said:

Why is it that every Unionist is deemed a troll? Were 55% of Scotland having bantz back in 2014?

Of course every unionist isn't a troll, but in my experience very, very few have any positive vision for Scotland's future.   As such their primary concern is maintenance of the status quo born in most cases of naked self-interest, no matter the growing iniquities and inequalities around them.  This in turn induces fear, and it's bedfellow aggression, most widely evidenced on the outer fringes of unionism such as the orange mob.

Of course there are also bampots on the nationalist side, but I have much more fear of violence  arising in the event of Scottsih independence than from a failure to achieve it.  If only trolling were the full extent of it.

[AUFC90]

We’re six years further forward - what’s the plan for Indyref2?

Well have one at some point in the future and we'll win.

The longer we wait the bigger the yes vote. Boris Johnson should have granted one the minute he got into Downing Street but he's just not a very good politician.

[pandarilla]

There were two things there.

The only thing infantile is the hostility that Unionists, No-voters and Leavers recieve on this site from angry Nats. I respect your pro-indy views, now you have to respect posters such as myself, Mastermind, Malky and the Kincardine for thinking differently. It’s democratic politics for a reason.

I respect views that have been well thought out or articulated in a reasonable manner.

The posters you mention rarely achieve those standards. Despite this, a few of us regularly engage discussions - but it rarely goes anywhere productive. Pie & bovril has plenty of flaws, but by in large it is a place where opinions are given a fair hearing (and a good going over). The arguments from unionist posters are usually just weak, and a slagging match ensues.

The post you were attacking (actually your were just attacking the man, not the post) was a fantastic one.

You tried to discredit the poster and I rightly pointed out what an infantile approach that was.

[pandarilla]

We’re six years further forward - what’s the plan for Indyref2?

So on the one hand you're calling them out for constantly banging on about indyref2 but now you're criticising them for not having a concrete plan in place.

It's a waiting game at the moment, and the tide is turning in the polls.

[wirez]

1 hour ago, AB de Villiers said:

Why is it that every Unionist is deemed a troll? Were 55% of Scotland having bantz back in 2014?

I reckon about 20-25% were scared, unsure, happy enough with a UK that seemed at ease with its global standing as a big voice within the EU.

The rest now are BritNat wallopers that are fairly happy to see a continuing decline in Scotland's wealth and status as a country so long as they still get to wave Union flag about.

So aye, I reckon a good 30% of folk living in Scotland are utter fannies.

 

 

[SandyCromarty]

Excellent posting by Wattoo which clearly defines our need to carve our own destiny and be free to sink or swim.

Independence is inevitable.

Edited February 4, 2020 by SandyCromarty

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Tonight Scotland was denied a say on an NHS bill which will have a direct impact on our own NHS spending through Barnett consequentials, in spite of this Scottish MP’s were roundly mocked and condescended towards by fellow MP’s and the presiding speaker, yet people actually think this is the best place for Scotland to be aligned to? Seriously??

[pandarilla]

I mentioned that the said poster thinks Ukraine and Russia are normal countries, so I think I’d pass on his views on the way forward for Scotland and the UK. That’s entirely reasonable. The sexual assault thing was a bit more personal, but given that WATTOO said he’d batter me in ‘real life’, I think I am entitled to that. Repeating “Scotland will get to decide it’s own future” in several different ways does not make a good post. WATTOO’s post translates as, ‘let’s take a gamble, a risk, at least it will be OUR risk’, which doesn’t sound too promising to me.

It’s also been mentioned that the currency issue is sorted, I don’t recall this, and I’d be interested to hear as it’s one of my main worries about an independent Scotland. Scotland would unquestionably lose political power and nobody can be certain on the trade agreements we would be able to achieve. I’d also worry about the rate that businesses would leave Scotland. Without sounding a bit Malky here, Scotland spends much more than it makes, and if the answer to that is yet another increase in tax for myself and others, an independent Scotland wouldn’t be financially attractive for myself. These are just a handful of different reasons why people won’t want independence, and none of them have been answered by Nats on here. That’s why you all have the bad reputation, it’s just insults from the off.

Thank you for a decent response. It's way past my bedtime and so I'll reply properly tomorrow.

[DublinMagyar]

Minority of people

Tonight Scotland was denied a say on an NHS bill which will have a direct impact on our own NHS spending through Barnett consequentials, in spite of this Scottish MP’s were roundly mocked and condescended towards by fellow MP’s and the presiding speaker, yet people actually think this is the best place for Scotland to be aligned to? Seriously??

[Mastermind]

I mentioned that the said poster thinks Ukraine and Russia are normal countries, so I think I’d pass on his views on the way forward for Scotland and the UK. That’s entirely reasonable. The sexual assault thing was a bit more personal, but given that WATTOO said he’d batter me in ‘real life’, I think I am entitled to that. Repeating “Scotland will get to decide it’s own future” in several different ways does not make a good post. WATTOO’s post translates as, ‘let’s take a gamble, a risk, at least it will be OUR risk’, which doesn’t sound too promising to me.

It’s also been mentioned that the currency issue is sorted, I don’t recall this, and I’d be interested to hear as it’s one of my main worries about an independent Scotland. Scotland would unquestionably lose political power and nobody can be certain on the trade agreements we would be able to achieve. I’d also worry about the rate that businesses would leave Scotland. Without sounding a bit Malky here, Scotland spends much more than it makes, and if the answer to that is yet another increase in tax for myself and others, an independent Scotland wouldn’t be financially attractive for myself. These are just a handful of different reasons why people won’t want independence, and none of them have been answered by Nats on here. That’s why you all have the bad reputation, it’s just insults from the off.

Excellent post. And exactly why the Nats know deep down independence is never going to happen. Even basic questions like those on Scotland’s future just can’t be answered (or can be answered but they know the answer is disastrous). The majority of Scots are just too sensible to fall for it.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

7 hours ago, AB de Villiers said:

 

I mentioned that the said poster thinks Ukraine and Russia are normal countries, so I think I’d pass on his views on the way forward for Scotland and the UK. That’s entirely reasonable. The sexual assault thing was a bit more personal, but given that WATTOO said he’d batter me in ‘real life’, I think I am entitled to that. Repeating “Scotland will get to decide it’s own future” in several different ways does not make a good post. WATTOO’s post translates as, ‘let’s take a gamble, a risk, at least it will be OUR risk’, which doesn’t sound too promising to me.

It’s also been mentioned that the currency issue is sorted, I don’t recall this, and I’d be interested to hear as it’s one of my main worries about an independent Scotland. Scotland would unquestionably lose political power and nobody can be certain on the trade agreements we would be able to achieve. I’d also worry about the rate that businesses would leave Scotland. Without sounding a bit Malky here, Scotland spends much more than it makes, and if the answer to that is yet another increase in tax for myself and others, an independent Scotland wouldn’t be financially attractive for myself. These are just a handful of different reasons why people won’t want independence, and none of them have been answered by Nats on here. That’s why you all have the bad reputation, it’s just insults from the off.

 

Exactly how much political power does Scotland have at present ?  And would you agree that an independent state is likeley to have MORE political power than a supplicant one ?

[Dan Steele]

10 hours ago, AB de Villiers said:

nobody can be certain on the trade agreements we would be able to achieve. 

The media and business leaders always shout that business doesn't like uncertainty. Would trade agreements for an independent Scotland within the EU be more or less likely to result in a settled state of affairs than the continuing debacle of a Westminster seemingly making things up as they go and, of course, blaming the EU?

[Blootoon87]

Excellent post. And exactly why the Nats know deep down independence is never going to happen. Even basic questions like those on Scotland’s future just can’t be answered (or can be answered but they know the answer is disastrous). The majority of Scots are just too sensible to fall for it.

You can't honestly think independence is never going to happen? Even the staunchest unionist has to admit it's looking quite likely

[Double Jack D]

On 04/02/2020 at 10:08, WATTOO said:

Once again the debate on independence is being hijacked and turned into some sort of Scotland v England grudge match but in reality it's nothing like that and indeed far more simple and easy to understand.

Increasingly the values, needs and views of the Scottish people are becoming further and further detached from their English counterpart, Brexit was a good indication of this in itself and under the current Government we will increasingly see Scotland being treated as a distraction which should be seen and not heard.

The latest proposed move by BJ and his Government to remove the climate change conference from Glasgow and send it South to London is just another example of the complete and utter contempt in which they hold for Scotland.

HS2 will do nothing for Scotland, Heathrow will do nothing for Scotland, further Crossrail projects and add ons will do nothing for Scotland and as the Tories don't require our votes to retain power then we can expect absolutely nothing from them.

Independence is NOT about wearing your kilt and Glengarry and shouting out "1314 ya bass", it's about governing our own country and shaping policy in a way which best suits our citizens from both an Economic and  Cultural perspective, it's about playing to your strengths as opposed to being a region of an inward looking country which doesn't recognise your voice.

Nobody's saying it will have instant success as re-joining with Europe will come with caveats and require sacrifices, however that will be OUR choice to make.

As for the SNP, it won't be a dictatorship, so if people aren't happy with the Governing party there will still be elections and the opportunity to vote in our own Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem, Green or whoever party, but instead of having their strings pulled from London, they will be able to actually run our own country from right here in Edinburgh.

Honestly, what are people afraid of ? Why would any country not want self determination and a right to Govern themselves and make their own decisions ??

I'll never understand those who don't I'm afraid.................

Nail on the head... added bonus is we have an already established proportional voting system in our parliament. The difference in Scottish democratic representation between the status quo and independence would be fucking huge.

[carpetmonster]

The UK have much more power to force issues and get exactly what they want. The EU sadly know this and are playing along with the games. They would give Scotland one chance and one chance only. The UK is a much more attractive proposition for businesses than an independent Scotland, I would worry about Scotland’s economy if they left, especially with Nicola’s spending habits.

 

Please enlighten us on what issues the UK will have power over the EU on as a non-member state? As a geographically closer vassal of the US? On trade? What does the UK have that the EU couldn't source from one of its own member states, or cheaper from elsewhere now that they're under no compunction to buy from the UK? Are you betting the whole farm on HP Sauce and crumpets?

Edited February 5, 2020 by carpetmonster

[The Moonster]

11 hours ago, AB de Villiers said:

That’s why you all have the bad reputation, it’s just insults from the off.

 

 

[carpetmonster]

14 minutes ago, AB de Villiers said:

 

Nobody said the UK have power over the EU. One would think this was a Nat twisting words again...

 

So who do you reckon they do have much more power over? The US? China? New Zealand? Atlantis?

Edited February 5, 2020 by carpetmonster