When will indyref2 happen?

[Guest Jedi]

I have no doubt Sturgeon will be appearing on the leaders debates down south with Starmer, Sunak et al.

She will of course be standing on a single platform in the GE then..'vote for us and we will negotiate Independece'.

Any other issue...health, education, the economy, jobs, the Environment she will have to turn back to 'if we were Independent..'

[Antlion]

1 hour ago, Clown Job said:

 

The so called “leaders” in the Jock outposts should be treated with utter contempt 

 

We could take our lead on that from how their party leaders treat them.

[Gordon EF]

On 02/01/2023 at 22:57, Jedi said:

Ah, but we keep hearing 'get Independence and then vote in whoever you like'.

The idea that a Tory govt is 'gone from Scotland forever' doesn't entirely hold. Who knows what the picture might be in 15/20 years time..you could still have a Tory (or some other right wing party) in power. Or is that okay because they are 'our' Tories?

Don't disagree that an incoming Lab govt might be there for 10/15 years as well, but the Tories are genuinely damaged in England at the moment..it will take a whole for them to get back their support there 

That's an obtuse way to look at it. Of course absolutely anything could possibly happen but it's more sensible to look at probabilities. An independent Scotland has a far lower probability of electing a Tory government than the UK. Nobody with a functioning brain thinks differently.

[Gordon EF]

9 hours ago, Jedi said:

It has long been an accusation levelled at Holyrood that it is a home for 2nd or 3rd Division politicians (of all parties) while the 'more' talented go to Westminster. Maybe not just Labour MSP's who fail the 'competence' test.

Yep, an accusation levelled by poeple who're generally opposed to independence and devolution and are attempting to devalue the parliament. Let's not pretend that "accusations" from biased sources are objective facts.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Gordon EF

[Pocketman]

12 hours ago, Jedi said:

I have no doubt Sturgeon will be appearing on the leaders debates down south with Starmer, Sunak et al.

She will of course be standing on a single platform in the GE then..'vote for us and we will negotiate Independece'.

Any other issue...health, education, the economy, jobs, the Environment she will have to turn back to 'if we were Independent..'

yes cause we don't have Scottish Parliament elections for people to asses and vote Govt performance on such issues, and certainly none as recently as May 2021. You just go round and round in circles. 

[Guest Jedi]

3 hours ago, KingRocketman II said:

yes cause we don't have Scottish Parliament elections for people to asses and vote Govt performance on such issues, and certainly none as recently as May 2021. You just go round and round in circles. 

I think the point remains for many (not all), that they are still a 'means to an end' and therefore record in govt doesn't matter, it's still a vote to either get a 2nd Ref or negotiate Independence.

That, coupled with a weak opposition and the voting choice for those opposed to Independence split between 3 parties, guarantess the SNP most seats.

That, of course, is unlikely to change at either GE 24 or Holyrood 26. What happens after that..who knows 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Jedi

[StellarHibee]

33 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I think the point remains for many (not all), that they are still a 'means to an end' and therefore record in govt doesn't matter, it's still a vote to either get a 2nd Ref or negotiate Independence.

That, coupled with a weak opposition and the voting choice for those opposed to Independence split between 3 parties, guarantess the SNP most seats.

That, of course, is unlikely to change at either GE 24 or Holyrood 26. What happens after that..who knows 

The SNP don't even require a "means to an end" for people to vote for them. We can see how the "alternatives" are performing in England and Wales and that enough is reason to vote SNP in Scotland.

[Brother Blades]

I certainly don’t think the SNP government are without fault, they have many. However it’s very telling that despite this, no other party either in Scotland or outwith can even dream to lay a glove on them when it comes to policy or competency.

I do see them as a means to an end, but there are red lines that would mean I’d vote alternatively (Green), those red lines are EU membership, freedom of movement, not doing their limited best to counteract Tory austerity. 
The absolute certainty is that I’ll never lend my vote to Scottish Labour under their current guise when they fail to even recognise that Independence is such a huge issue for a large proportion of the Scottish electorate. 

[Guest Jedi]

I totally get the means to an end. Don't think they are 'streets ahead' on either policy or competency though..need to agree to disagree on that.

I would also wish to be back in the EU, or at least be part of EFTA. Under Independence I still think that will take a long time though, and yes, the current Labour 'plans' aren't going to take us there soon either, even the Lib Dems have given up on it.

In an 'ideal' world (which no, we don't have) the Scottish Labour Party would be 'independently run'. That would allow them to be at least 'neutral' on the question of Independence and allow their MSPs a free vote on the issue, rather than have a party line on it. (No, don't see that happening soon either).

Labour members and voters do of course still have a 'free' choice on Independence and in a Ref can vote either way.

In order to get that 40-45% SNP vote up over the line of 50% you still need those Labour members and voters to back Independence in any Ref.

[Brother Blades]

11 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I totally get the means to an end. Don't think they are 'streets ahead' on either policy or competency though..need to agree to disagree on that.

I would also wish to be back in the EU, or at least be part of EFTA. Under Independence I still think that will take a long time though, and yes, the current Labour 'plans' aren't going to take us there soon either, even the Lib Dems have given up on it.

In an 'ideal' world (which no, we don't have) the Scottish Labour Party would be 'independently run'. That would allow them to be at least 'neutral' on the question of Independence and allow their MSPs a free vote on the issue, rather than have a party line on it. (No, don't see that happening soon either).

Labour members and voters do of course still have a 'free' choice on Independence and in a Ref can vote either way.

In order to get that 40-45% SNP vote up over the line of 50% you still need those Labour members and voters to back Independence in any Ref.

This seems like a perfectly reasonable post on face value, but all too often you use the SNPBAD schtick, promoting UK Labour policy when it’s tremendously difficult to get the gable end of a fiver between the two main Westminster parties policy.

I’ve no doubt that things might be slightly better under a Westminster Labour administration, but as much as makes no difference.

Its the pandering to the worst c***s on the right that pisses me off, a party that was formed to represent workers banning front benchers from attending picket lines, the hard line & meaningless “make Brexit work” the absolute refusal to consider that democracy needs to be enacted & seen to be enacted when it comes to a “voluntary” Union. 
I welcome the fact that you see flaws in current Labour policy, rhetoric & actions. But it’s a very skewed view when you don’t offer the same to our government who (it appears to me) are more in line with original Labour values than the current shitshow under Sir Keith! 
It’s power at any price, and the track record shows that “we will be radical in government” isn’t true in the slightest. HoL being the most blatant disregard for manifesto commitments being ditched. One thing that would make our government immediately better. 

[Guest Jedi]

41 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

This seems like a perfectly reasonable post on face value, but all too often you use the SNPBAD schtick, promoting UK Labour policy when it’s tremendously difficult to get the gable end of a fiver between the two main Westminster parties policy.

I’ve no doubt that things might be slightly better under a Westminster Labour administration, but as much as makes no difference.

Its the pandering to the worst c***s on the right that pisses me off, a party that was formed to represent workers banning front benchers from attending picket lines, the hard line & meaningless “make Brexit work” the absolute refusal to consider that democracy needs to be enacted & seen to be enacted when it comes to a “voluntary” Union. 
I welcome the fact that you see flaws in current Labour policy, rhetoric & actions. But it’s a very skewed view when you don’t offer the same to our government who (it appears to me) are more in line with original Labour values than the current shitshow under Sir Keith! 
It’s power at any price, and the track record shows that “we will be radical in government” isn’t true in the slightest. HoL being the most blatant disregard for manifesto commitments being ditched. One thing that would make our government immediately better. 

The Labour Party has many flaws, as imo does the SNP.

You are never going to vote Labour which I get, and I am never going to vote SNP, though obviously I have done in the past for a long time, and as said am said to see what they have become compared to the party of before.

Labour under Corbyn was much closer to the founding values of the party, but as we know (sadly) the 'realpolitik' of winning elections across the UK means that a more genuinely left-wing and radical manifesto will fail against the Tory media.

Ultimately winning elections is still important in order to implement policies which you believe can make people's lives better. I still think a Labour govt (wish it had been Corbyn's) but now the 'Starmer version' will still improve lives compared to the Tories 

[Brother Blades]

6 minutes ago, Jedi said:

The Labour Party has many flaws, as imo does the SNP.

You are never going to vote Labour which I get, and I am never going to vote SNP, though obviously I have done in the past for a long time, and as said am said to see what they have become compared to the party of before.

Labour under Corbyn was much closer to the founding values of the party, but as we know (sadly) the 'realpolitik' of winning elections across the UK means that a more genuinely left-wing and radical manifesto will fail against the Tory media.

Ultimately winning elections is still important in order to implement policies which you believe can make people's lives better. I still think a Labour govt (wish it had been Corbyn's) but now the 'Starmer version' will still improve lives compared to the Tories 

Genuinely, what has happened to the SNP?

Did you support them under Salmond? Or are we going back a long way before you ditched them? 

[Guest Jedi]

8 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

Genuinely, what has happened to the SNP?

Did you support them under Salmond? Or are we going back a long way before you ditched them? 

 I very much supported them under Salmond yes.

Since then: 

Copying up to big business and chasing big money, with a willingness to sell off Scottish assets in firesales to multinationals  (BP/Shell et al). Unwillingness to use tax powers to try and take more from those more able to afford it.

Various factors around the 'handling' of the pandemic.

Pursuing and publicising measures such as 'free' bikes, laptops, baby boxes the, the GRA etc..not saying there is anything 'wrong' with these but they are pushed to the front to  votes and cover up the record on public services 

The 'proposals' for the first 10 years after Independence which sends a shudder up spine

Dividing public sector workers against each other

Control freakery from the top which often shuts out the views of members 

And being much more aggressive in attitude towards anyone who isn't on message..didnt see that so much pre-2014.

Are just some of the 'things' which have happened to the SNP compared to the past (there are more).

My support changed around 3 or 4 years ago.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Jedi

[Brother Blades]

9 minutes ago, Jedi said:

The Labour Party has many flaws, as imo does the SNP.

You are never going to vote Labour which I get, and I am never going to vote SNP, though obviously I have done in the past for a long time, and as said am said to see what they have become compared to the party of before.

Labour under Corbyn was much closer to the founding values of the party, but as we know (sadly) the 'realpolitik' of winning elections across the UK means that a more genuinely left-wing and radical manifesto will fail against the Tory media.

Ultimately winning elections is still important in order to implement policies which you believe can make people's lives better. I still think a Labour govt (wish it had been Corbyn's) but now the 'Starmer version' will still improve lives compared to the Tories 

Also, if you are more Corbynite than Starmerite (two made up words), why do you consistently promote the UK Labour Party? It’s infuriating as (to me) it appears your only reason is they are not the SNP? 
I’d like for you to point to & counteract what makes the current Labour Party more left wing than the current SNP administration? If that’s what you are looking for of course.

I understand that presently, the Labour Party are the only entity that can disrupt Tory rule in the UK, but that being the case & you feeling they aren’t left wing enough, why don’t you promote Green / Alba in your posts? 

 

[J_Stewart]

11 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Labour under Corbyn was much closer to the founding values of the party, but as we know (sadly) the 'realpolitik' of winning elections across the UK means that a more genuinely left-wing and radical manifesto will fail against the Tory media.

After "Tory media" you forgot to add "and current incumbents of the Labour Party front bench" who backstabbed and kneecapped Corbyn and the Labour left at every possible opportunity. Would not trust a single word that came out of their mouths, and the likelihood is that they'll be arching ever further right in statements and policy, rather than "just saying things to keep the brexiters onside but actually being really, really socialist".

[Guest Jedi]

11 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

Also, if you are more Corbynite than Starmerite (two made up words), why do you consistently promote the UK Labour Party? It’s infuriating as (to me) it appears your only reason is they are not the SNP? 
I’d like for you to point to & counteract what makes the current Labour Party more left wing than the current SNP administration? If that’s what you are looking for of course.

I understand that presently, the Labour Party are the only entity that can disrupt Tory rule in the UK, but that being the case & you feeling they aren’t left wing enough, why don’t you promote Green / Alba in your posts? 

 

I have actually 'promoted' Alba in some posts and indeed would probably give them my 2nd vote at Holyrood (not a fan of the Greens). If there was an IndyRef tomorrow I would still vote Yes.

Tbh I find it frustrating that Alba haven't done better and eaten more into the SNP vote (they do seem to be quite ridiculed on here).

The Labour Party will always swing back and forward between its left and more centrist/right wings..I wouldn't vote for the Starmer version 'just' because they aren't the SNP though..I genuinely like the Green Economy plans, the move to make the minimum wage more of a living wage, the attempts to tackle tax avoidance and loopholes, the plans to tackle domestic violence, nationalising railways, abolishing the HoL...all these are still 'left' leaning policies..far from perfect in other areas (most notably Brexit and immigration) though.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Jedi

[Guest Jedi]

And I would be more than happy to talk up the Alba Party btw Don't think it would gain much, if any traction on P+B though

And as said in a Holyrood election I would go Labour 1 and Alba 2

[btb]

4 minutes ago, Jedi said:

And I would be more than happy to talk up the Alba Party btw Don't think it would gain much, if any traction on P+B though

And as said in a Holyrood election I would go Labour 1 and Alba 2

That joint endorsement says more about you than is good to reveal.. 

[Guest Jedi]

Just now, btb said:

That joint endorsement says more about you than is good to reveal.. 

Naturally, as SNP doesn't appear in it.

As well as Labour BAAAD, we need Alba BAAAD as well.

[btb]

4 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Naturally, as SNP doesn't appear in it.

As well as Labour BAAAD, we need Alba BAAAD as well.

Nope as I mentioned yesterday my reason for disliking the the current ScotLab iteration is it's decision to elect an exploitative corporate shill as their leader, someone who can be trusted to jump exactly as high as Sir Keir requires. There seems to be a bit more promise in the generation to follow Sarwar but they've yet to turn that promise into credible reasons to think about voting ScotLab.

Alba is led by Mr. Sleepy Cuddles and filled with backwards looking malcontents you sum them up pretty well - it really doesn't surprise me that they appeal to a corporatist acolyte like yourself.