When will indyref2 happen?

[John Lambies Doos]

Have we left the UK yet?

[AUFC90]

1 minute ago, AUFC90 said:

Independence is the ability of a sovereign parliament to make all political decisions including whether to join the EU or not. It's not hard, being governed by Westminster or choosing to join the EU which doesn't govern any of it's members isn't even remotely close to being the same thing. You know this.

I look forward to the EU telling us when to go to war and what infrastructure projects, that do not benefit us, we'll have to pay for. Oh wait.....it wont happen.

[Bishop Briggs]

Just now, AUFC90 said:

Independence is the ability of a sovereign parliament to make all political decisions including whether to join the EU or not. It's not hard, being governed by Westminster or choosing to join the EU which doesn't govern any of it's members isn't even remotely close to being the same thing. You know this.

EU  Membership means that Parliament hands over its sovereignty to Brussels which has legal supremacy under the Treaties. The Europhiles used to say it was pooling sovereignty. Sovereignty is a bit like virginity - you either have it or you don't.

[Loondave1]

The posters to whom I was referring in my post were happy to play political games.
It's the Nationalists love for the EU that is bizarre. How can Scotland be independent if it's part of a European supra-national state whose laws have legal supremacy over the Scottish Parliament's laws? Scottish independence and self-government are incompatible with political Unions, both British and European.

I have to wonder how many Nationalists fell in love with the EU purely to get a new grievance despite having been ambivalent at best previously.

[AUFC90]

1 minute ago, Bishop Briggs said:

EU  Membership means that Parliament hands over its sovereignty to Brussels which has legal supremacy under the Treaties. The Europhiles used to say it was pooling sovereignty. Sovereignty is a bit like virginity - you either have it or you don't.

It hands over some sovereignty as a price for being part of the EU with all it's benefits. Voluntarily i may add. Even Norway hands over some sovereignty and pays for the privilege. To suggest that Norway, Germany or the UK doesn't have control over the majority of decisions that affect it is fantasist nonsense at best. Decisions made by Westminster affect my day to day life year in year out. EU???? Not so much.

[Bishop Briggs]

2 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

I look forward to the EU telling us when to go to war and what infrastructure projects, that do not benefit us, we'll have to pay for. Oh wait.....it wont happen.

Try reading Article 42, especially section 7, of the Lisbon Treaty - http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-5-general-provisions-on-the-unions-external-action-and-specific-provisions/chapter-2-specific-provisions-on-the-common-foreign-and-security-policy/section-2-provisions-on-the-common-security-and-defence-policy/129-article-42.html.

That's in addition to our NATO obligations.

 

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, Bishop Briggs said:

EU  Membership means that Parliament hands over its sovereignty to Brussels which has legal supremacy under the Treaties. The Europhiles used to say it was pooling sovereignty. Sovereignty is a bit like virginity - you either have it or you don't.

Agreeing to the maximum KW allowed in a vacuum cleaner and minimum workers rights does not amount to handing over sovereignty. At the most it's a bit of bra on canoodling.

[Bishop Briggs]

Just now, welshbairn said:

Agreeing to the maximum KW allowed in a vacuum cleaner and minimum workers rights does not amount to handing over sovereignty. At the most it's a bit of bra on canoodling.

Are you honestly saying that's limit of the EU's powers? 

The Single Market has over 12,750 tariffs for a start. Then there is the freedom of movement, the European Convention on Human Rights...

If the EU has such little power as you claim, why are you so bothered about Brexit? Surely our own Parliament can deal with those matters.

[AUFC90]

1 minute ago, Bishop Briggs said:

Are you honestly saying that's limit of the EU's powers? 

The Single Market has over 12,750 tariffs for a start. Then there is the freedom of movement, the European Convention on Human Rights...

If the EU has such little power as you claim, why are you so bothered about Brexit? Surely our own Parliament can deal with those matters.

Tarriffs - who cares ? Tariff free within the EU.

Freedom of movement - Good thing.

Human Rights - Good thing.

Is that seriously all you've got ?

Westminster has far far more power over it's domestic affairs than Brussels. Your reply proves it. They have far more power over Scotland's future than the EU does.

I don't wait for budgets from Brussels or policy announcements because quite frankyly they're irrelevant and I couldn't give the shiniest of shites. Budgets and policies from the UK government ????? I think you get the picture.

[welshbairn]

Just now, Bishop Briggs said:

Are you honestly saying that's limit of the EU's powers? 

The Single Market has over 12,750 tariffs for a start. Then there is the freedom of movement, the European Convention on Human Rights...

If the EU has such little power as you claim, why are you so bothered about Brexit? Surely our own Parliament can deal with those matters.

That has to be the 50th time you've posted that tariff figure. Given there's hundreds of thousands of types of goods we trade with scores of countries I'd say that was pretty low. And if our Parliament has to duplicate all that work it will require an immense amount of work and expense, loading our industries with yet more pointless layers of bureaucracy. The EU has nothing to do with the European Convention on Human Rights, we set it up before we joined. So as usual it comes down to "freedom of movement", nice code word..

[Bishop Briggs]

Just now, welshbairn said:

That has to be the 50th time you've posted that tariff figure. Given there's hundreds of thousands of types of goods we trade with scores of countries I'd say that was pretty low. And if our Parliament has to duplicate all that work it will require an immense amount of work and expense, loading our industries with yet more pointless layers of bureaucracy. The EU has nothing to do with the European Convention on Human Rights, we set it up before we joined. So as usual it comes down to "freedom of movement", nice code word..

What load of nonsense! Britain's membership was superseded by the EU's accession.The Lisbon Treaty enshrined the European Convention on Human Rights into European Law. Before that, an individual Member State could withdraw. Now, the only way to withdraw is to leave the EU.

[AUFC90]

I'm happy with the European Convention on Human Rights thank you very much. Absolutely no surprise that the Tories aren't fans.

[welshbairn]

7 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said:

What load of nonsense! Britain's membership was superseded by the EU's accession.The Lisbon Treaty enshrined the European Convention on Human Rights into European Law. Before that, an individual Member State could withdraw. Now, the only way to withdraw is to leave the EU.

We were members before we joined the EU, why on earth would we want to leave an organisation that we set up and guarantees minimum human rights across the continent? It's quite right that signing up to it is a minimum condition of EU membership, you could add the civilised world to that. If we leave we'll join Belarus and the Vatican as the only European countries to reject it.

Edited January 25, 2017 by welshbairn

[Bishop Briggs]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

We were members before we joined the EU, why on earth would we want to leave an organisation that we set up an guarantees minimum human rights across the continent? It's quite right that signing up to it is a minimum condition of EU membership, you could add the civilised world to that. If we leave we'll join Belarus and the Vatican as the only European countries to reject it.

I was debunking your ludicrous claim - "The EU has nothing to do with the European Convention on Human Rights".

Britain can still be a member, if it chooses, after Brexit. There are large number of members who are not in the EU. 

 

[NotThePars]

So really it boils down to having to sign up to human rights legislation and freedom of movement neither of which are actually a problem for Scotland. Sound.

[AUFC90]

5 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

So really it boils down to having to sign up to human rights legislation and freedom of movement neither of which are actually a problem for Scotland. Sound.

Pretty much, after all his insistence over the last few pages that Brussels has more power than Westminster he managed to come up those two and some tariffs that Scotland isn't subjected to 

[NotThePars]

3 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

Pretty much, after all his insistence over the last few pages that Brussels has more power than Westminster he managed to come up those two and some tariffs that Scotland isn't subjected to 

 

Can't see what's so great about swapping the entity which enshrines basic workers rights, human rights and the possibility of travelling across the continent with a minimum of fuss for the ones that want to make soldiers unaccountable for their actions, hammer the unions to pieces and close the gates on everybody. 

[AUFC90]

Just now, NotThePars said:

 

Can't see what's so great about swapping the entity which enshrines basic workers rights, human rights and the possibility of travelling across the continent with a minimum of fuss for the ones that want to make soldiers unaccountable for their actions, hammer the unions to pieces and close the gates on everybody. 

Because 12000 tariffs, European army, Turkey and that.

[Bishop Briggs]

5 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

Pretty much, after all his insistence over the last few pages that Brussels has more power than Westminster he managed to come up those two and some tariffs that Scotland isn't subjected to 

I merely gave some examples. For a full picture, read the EU's consolidated treaties.

If you don't think that EU has much power, why are you so opposed to Brexit?

[1320Lichtie]

I have to wonder how many Nationalists fell in love with the EU purely to get a new grievance despite having been ambivalent at best previously.

I could not give a flying f**k about the EU tbh with you. But if we were independent then Scotland would've been staying in it, being independent allows you to make these choices. It amazes me how fucking different we are to England when it comes to voting for things yet we're stuck in a union with them where all their decisions override ours.

It's like going out with a girl you barely have anything in common with its bizarre.