When will indyref2 happen?

[Duries Air Freshener]

45 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Very surprised that none of the separists are on drooling over NS’s statement today, whatever it was about?

I get the impression that ,like most people, they are much more interested in the events at Westminster.

Seems like it was just the usual bluster that we’ve all come to expect:

Angry face on 

Grudge and grievance stoked 

Daft claims of democracy being denied 

Acting like Westminster isn’t our government, elected by the British electorate, including us 

Humility 

Expression of a desire to work congenially with the rest of the country 

Anything of substance 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Duries Air Freshener

[monthefife]

1 hour ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

Really? I'm surprised that you are very surprised. 

I'm pretty familiar with the democratic arguments. I suspect that the document isn't particularly aimed at me.  I'd be more interested in the opposite argument, as the unionists appear to have abandoned the 'too wee, too daft and too poor' rubbish and now seem reliant on the 'not now', seemingly aware that their democratic reluctance looks absurd. 

But you carry on.  I'm sure someone will be impressed. 

This. It really is quite something to hear the desperation from the unionist side and the print/TV media scrambling from the "too wee, too poor, too stupid" arguments to the "you dinnae have the legal right, so shut it and get back in your box". As if that's something to brag about? 

[williemillersmoustache]

 

 

 

 

I see it "would be wrong to deny the public the chance to vote" for something that's only polling at 27%.

 

 

[Dawson Park Boy]

12 minutes ago, monthefife said:

This. It really is quite something to hear the desperation from the unionist side and the print/TV media scrambling from the "too wee, too poor, too stupid" arguments to the "you dinnae have the legal right, so shut it and get back in your box". As if that's something to brag about? 

All I can say, as I go about my daily business, is that, to date I hear absolutely nothing about this so- called referendum which is to take place supposedly in October 2023.

People are more interested in their holidays, cost of living and the Westminster PM elections.

For unionists like myself, disinterest is like manna from heaven.

[Duries Air Freshener]

12 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

All I can say, as I go about my daily business, is that, to date I hear absolutely nothing about this so- called referendum which is to take place supposedly in October 2023.

People are more interested in their holidays, cost of living and the Westminster PM elections.

For unionists like myself, disinterest is like manna from heaven.

Spot on, DPB.

I experience much the same.

One of my closest friends is a dyed in the wool nhationalist, and he is completely underwhelmed by it all.

Opinion polls will still give them half decent figures, as people still have an opinion, but Scots aren’t actually clamouring for another referendum.

You don’t get that impression from the cultists on here though.

#UnchainTheUnicorn!  

[Antlion]

33 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

All I can say, as I go about my daily business, is that, to date I hear absolutely nothing about this so- called referendum which is to take place supposedly in October 2023.

People are more interested in their holidays, cost of living and the Westminster PM elections.

For unionists like myself, disinterest is like manna from heaven.

1. You’re not a unionist - you oppose political unions.

2. People weren’t all that interested in leaving the EU prior to a ballot being proposed by that w****r Cameron.

3. It says a lot that UKNats are relying more on disinterest to keep Scotland dependent than any actual benefits of being a minor region of the UK.

[Antlion]

2 hours ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Very surprised that none of the separists are on drooling over NS’s statement today, whatever it was about?

 

As you’re a separatist, perhaps you can explain why you’re not?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

1 hour ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

Seems like it was just the usual bluster that we’ve all come to expect:

Angry face on 

Grudge and grievance stoked 

Daft claims of democracy being denied 

Acting like Westminster isn’t our government, elected by the British electorate, including us 

Humility 

Expression of a desire to work congenially with the rest of the country 

Anything of substance 

‘Rest of the country’ ? The UK is a collective of countries. 
There is a clear democratic deficit in the union, that surely surely must be obvious to you? Thing is if there was a federal structure to it all then the indy case would massively be diminished in terms of popularity etc? But the arrogance of etonians to cling to this empiristic rule britannia pish in a parliament that has wee guys going about with swords and you’re booking your seat with a christian prayer card? We have an unelected second chamber where Bishops of the Church of England are allowed to legislate on behalf of the entire UK? I mean that doesnt even cover half the pantomime of it all.  Maybe, just maybe the UK government would be on much better grounds if it wasnt so arrogant when addressing the constitutional deficit and archaic structures. 

[BigDoddyKane]

50 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

All I can say, as I go about my daily business, is that, to date I hear absolutely nothing about this so- called referendum which is to take place supposedly in October 2023.

People are more interested in their holidays, cost of living and the Westminster PM elections.

For unionists like myself, disinterest is like manna from heaven.

Exactly its the summer, it isnt currently on most peoples daily agenda and thats a good thing for the yes side, it should build slowly towards 2023 or whenever it ends up being. The momentum has plenty time and its the foundations being layed now. 

 

on the other hand i find NS and SNP really boring as speakers and supposed leaders and id like a broader yes movement where snp and their leadership are just a part of it. I dont think SNP are good enough to do it on their own  and they need a wider movement and they need to let that wider yes movement speak snd find its voice

Edited July 14, 2022 by BigDoddyKane

[TheScarf]

Saw something on twitter that sums up Scottish unionism perfectly. 

“Folk want Scottish Govt to function as if it has all the powers of a normal state, deny it that very thing, then complain when it doesn't.”

[Duries Air Freshener]

3 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

‘Rest of the country’ ? The UK is a collective of countries. 
There is a clear democratic deficit in the union, that surely surely must be obvious to you? Thing is if there was a federal structure to it all then the indy case would massively be diminished in terms of popularity etc? But the arrogance of etonians to cling to this empiristic rule britannia pish in a parliament that has wee guys going about with swords and you’re booking your seat with a christian prayer card? We have an unelected second chamber where Bishops of the Church of England are allowed to legislate on behalf of the entire UK? I mean that doesnt even cover half the pantomime of it all.  Maybe, just maybe the UK government would be on much better grounds if it wasnt so arrogant when addressing the constitutional deficit and archaic structures. 

Indeed, the UK is a country in it’s own right.  Look up the definition.

No, it’s not obvious to me that there’s a democratic deficit at all.

The only reason Etonians are at Westminster is that people elect them.  Why you’d have a problem with this, unless you have classist beliefs, is anyone’s guess.  If middle or working class people want more representation in politics, then nothing is stopping them getting involved.
 

The UK government is on fine grounds, and it’s actually many Nats who are not just arrogant, but have a sense of entitlement about them too.  They want to drag Scotland out of the country whatever way they can.

Time to face facts.. the issue was settled in 2014.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Duries Air Freshener

[git-intae-thum]

2 hours ago, BigDoddyKane said:

Exactly its the summer, it isnt currently on most peoples daily agenda and thats a good thing for the yes side, it should build slowly towards 2023 or whenever it ends up being. The momentum has plenty time and its the foundations being layed now. 

 

on the other hand i find NS and SNP really boring as speakers and supposed leaders and id like a broader yes movement where snp and their leadership are just a part of it. I dont think SNP are good enough to do it on their own  and they need a wider movement and they need to let that wider yes movement speak snd find its voice

Hopefully this happens.

But the professional agitator types that have since infiltrated the independence movement and sought to hijack it to suit their own particular ideologies will make a 2014 style unity far more difficult to achieve.

The onus is on the majority of us who prioritise independence, to put the more vocal culture warriors at each end of the spectrum on ignore.

[Dons_1988]

I don’t go about my day to day life telling friends and colleagues how much I want a referendum either, as it would be strange behaviour. 

Alternatively, to make myself feel good, friends and colleagues haven’t been coming up to me telling me how much they hate the idea of independence and don’t want a referendum. Which means a clear majority for yes I reckon. 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

36 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

Indeed, the UK is a country in it’s own right.  Look up the definition.

Scotland is a country, England is a country, Wales is a country, NI is a mess. 
 

No, it’s not obvious to me that there’s a democratic deficit at all. 
 

There absolutely is a massive deficit, given the fact more legislators in westminster are unelected in any way is the first real clue. 

The only reason Etonians are at Westminster is that people elect them.  Why you’d have a problem with this, unless you have classist beliefs, is anyone’s guess.
- England  elects them, Scotland continually rejects them, another example of a democratic deficit. 

 If middle or working class people want more representation in politics, then nothing is stopping them getting involved.
- apart from the fact most of them have to work their arses off to keep the lights on? We dont all have nanny’s to take us out campaigning. 

The UK government is on fine grounds, and it’s actually many Nats who are not just arrogant, but have a sense of entitlement about them too.  They want to drag Scotland out of the country whatever way they can.

Time to face facts.. the issue was settled in 2014.

-genuine lolz. 

 

[Duries Air Freshener]

24 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

 

Scotland, England, NI and Wales are indeed countries, but so is the UK.  Again, look up the definition.

One main parliament for the whole country, with an MP elected for each constituency, so no democratic deficit. The second chamber really isn’t really a big deal.

There’s absolutely no barrier to stop working class people getting involved in politics.  Neil Findlay was a brickie and he managed it, despite not going to Eton or having a nanny.

[Dons_1988]

That there is a democratic deficit is indisputable. You would have to be arguing in bad faith (surely not) to contest it. 

That in itself is not an open and shut case for independence by any stretch, but it is just a fact.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Dawson Park Bigot reaching almost Kincardine-esque levels of desperation here [emoji23]

[John Lambies Doos]

Scotland, England, NI and Wales are indeed countries, but so is the UK.  Again, look up the definition.
One main parliament for the whole country, with an MP elected for each constituency, so no democratic deficit. The second chamber really isn’t really a big deal.
There’s absolutely no barrier to stop working class people getting involved in politics.  Neil Findlay was a brickie and he managed it, despite not going to Eton or having a nanny.

Actually, only Scotland and England are countries. Wales is a principality, and NI a province

[Duries Air Freshener]

5 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

48 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

Scotland, England, NI and Wales are indeed countries, but so is the UK.  Again, look up the definition.
One main parliament for the whole country, with an MP elected for each constituency, so no democratic deficit. The second chamber really isn’t really a big deal.
There’s absolutely no barrier to stop working class people getting involved in politics.  Neil Findlay was a brickie and he managed it, despite not going to Eton or having a nanny.

Actually, only Scotland and England are countries. Wales is a principality, and NI a province

All four fit the definition of the term.

[Duries Air Freshener]

41 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

That there is a democratic deficit is indisputable. You would have to be arguing in bad faith (surely not) to contest it. 

That in itself is not an open and shut case for independence by any stretch, but it is just a fact.

If you think there’s a democratic deficit then go ahead and explain why.