When will indyref2 happen?

[Binos]

18 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

So, you agree with me. @Jedi2 is making stuff up. The SNP will not declare UDI if they win a majority of seats at the upcoming general election.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that a majority of seats in a FPTP election is not a mandate for independence unless pro-indy parties (including the SNP, Greens & Alba) also get >50% of the vote. 

Obviously a true mandate should be obtained through a referendum, but the undemocratic UK refuse to allow Scotland that form of self-determination. Given that the both the UK government and main opposition party keep telling us that Scotland is a drain on UK finances, you have to ask yourself why. Is it out of the goodness of their hearts, or are they hiding the real reasons?

They will not declare unilateral independence but that won't suggest bbc scotland suggesting they will 

Margaret thatcher once said she would give automatic independence if snp won a majority of seats in a general election 

These things tend to be suggested when know it won't happen 

[Jedi2]

Help ma boab...even SNP Conference is 'lying' now according to purveyor of all wisdom and top troll, @lichtgilphead

For the avoidance of doubt the wording the motion again (I know, I know, it's 'lies' but hey, it is from www.snp.org.

Conference believes that if the SNP subsequently wins a majority of the seats at the General Election in Scotland, the Scottish Government is empowered to begin immediate negotiations with the UK Government to give democratic effect to Scotland becoming an independent country and establish a Constitutional Convention constituted by the MPs elected to Westminster, MSPs and representatives of civic Scotland.

'Immediate negotiations'...(No, not my words, but the words of those SNP members who drafted the motion, and then had the motion passed at Confernece..and John Swinney's words 2 days ago that he would honour said motion.

So...is it 'lies' that if the SNP win a majority of seats at the GE that they will begin 'immediate negotiations' to give effect to Scotland becoming an Independent country.

Which part is lies...those who drafted the motion, those who voted for it, John Swinney restatement of it...or all 3?

 

[Dan Steele]

[JS_FFC]

1 hour ago, lichtgilphead said:

So, you agree with me. @Jedi2 is making stuff up. The SNP will not declare UDI if they win a majority of seats at the upcoming general election.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that a majority of seats in a FPTP election is not a mandate for independence unless pro-indy parties (including the SNP, Greens & Alba) also get >50% of the vote. 

Obviously a true mandate should be obtained through a referendum, but the undemocratic UK refuse to allow Scotland that form of self-determination. Given that the both the UK government and main opposition party keep telling us that Scotland is a drain on UK finances, you have to ask yourself why. Is it out of the goodness of their hearts, or are they hiding the real reasons?

Yes I agree with you. He's talking shite and has been for days.

 

To be honest I'd be surprised if Scotland becomes independent in the next 100 years. 2014 was the one-off chance. I don't see what the route to it is now which is a pity as I think we'd have done well independent.

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

2 minutes ago, JS_FFC said:

Yes I agree with you. He's talking shite and has been for days.

 

To be honest I'd be surprised if Scotland becomes independent in the next 100 years. 2014 was the one-off chance. I don't see what the route to it is now which is a pity as I think we'd have done well independent.

Yep, 2014 was indeed a one off chance.

It settled the matter, as is evident by the section of the Edinburgh Agreement below. 

Quote

• deliver a fair test and decisive expression of the views of people in Scotland and a result that everyone will respect

We shouldn’t even be talking about it.

[Dan Steele]

8 minutes ago, JS_FFC said:

2014 was the one-off chance. I don't see what the route to it is now which is a pity as I think we'd have done well independent.

It was certainly a chance. Even without an obvious route do people favouring independence now just give up? Is it a case of just shrugging, accepting and getting on with this total binfire of a UK? 

Just to add, me & Mrs S are currently in Bordeaux. Over a boozy lunch and chatting with folk at next table which spread through the place, the French can't believe a) Brexit, b) voting No, c) why we don't move here! Not scientific, obviously, but by f*ck the UK/Sunak/Westminster are all seen as one big joke. 

[Binos]

56 minutes ago, Jedi2 said:

Help ma boab...even SNP Conference is 'lying' now according to purveyor of all wisdom and top troll, @lichtgilphead

For the avoidance of doubt the wording the motion again (I know, I know, it's 'lies' but hey, it is from www.snp.org.

Conference believes that if the SNP subsequently wins a majority of the seats at the General Election in Scotland, the Scottish Government is empowered to begin immediate negotiations with the UK Government to give democratic effect to Scotland becoming an independent country and establish a Constitutional Convention constituted by the MPs elected to Westminster, MSPs and representatives of civic Scotland.

'Immediate negotiations'...(No, not my words, but the words of those SNP members who drafted the motion, and then had the motion passed at Confernece..and John Swinney's words 2 days ago that he would honour said motion.

So...is it 'lies' that if the SNP win a majority of seats at the GE that they will begin 'immediate negotiations' to give effect to Scotland becoming an Independent country.

Which part is lies...those who drafted the motion, those who voted for it, John Swinney restatement of it...or all 3?

 

Democratic effect 

[lichtgilphead]

42 minutes ago, Jedi2 said:

Help ma boab...even SNP Conference is 'lying' now according to purveyor of all wisdom and top troll, @lichtgilphead

For the avoidance of doubt the wording the motion again (I know, I know, it's 'lies' but hey, it is from www.snp.org.

Conference believes that if the SNP subsequently wins a majority of the seats at the General Election in Scotland, the Scottish Government is empowered to begin immediate negotiations with the UK Government to give democratic effect to Scotland becoming an independent country and establish a Constitutional Convention constituted by the MPs elected to Westminster, MSPs and representatives of civic Scotland.

'Immediate negotiations'...(No, not my words, but the words of those SNP members who drafted the motion, and then had the motion passed at Confernece..and John Swinney's words 2 days ago that he would honour said motion.

So...is it 'lies' that if the SNP win a majority of seats at the GE that they will begin 'immediate negotiations' to give effect to Scotland becoming an Independent country.

Which part is lies...those who drafted the motion, those who voted for it, John Swinney restatement of it...or all 3?

 

Where did I say "SNP Conference is 'lying'", Jedi? I'm well aware of official party policy, but see no way to bring the undemocratic UK Government to the negotiating table based on anything except a majority of voters in Scotland (not seats) on a one line manifesto.

It's perfectly possible to disagree with official party policy. I disagree with a number of SNP policies, but I'm not accusing people of lying about them.

Using your absolutely bat-shit crazy logic, Labour are lying when they say they want to keep nukes, because you personally disagree with that policy. Do you even realise how ridiculous you are making yourself look?

[Binos]

8 minutes ago, Dan Steele said:

It was certainly a chance. Even without an obvious route do people favouring independence now just give up? Is it a case of just shrugging, accepting and getting on with this total binfire of a UK? 

Just to add, me & Mrs S are currently in Bordeaux. Over a boozy lunch and chatting with folk at next table which spread through the place, the French can't believe a) Brexit, b) voting No, c) why we don't move here! Not scientific, obviously, but by f*ck the UK/Sunak/Westminster are all seen as one big joke. 

The endless bleating afterwards,  from the victors,  it was a once in a generation chance 

Well a generation is generally accepted as 15 years

I feel we should have another vote before 2030 as with quebec,  one vote is not enough,  the subject will rumble on forever 

[JS_FFC]

50 minutes ago, Dan Steele said:

It was certainly a chance. Even without an obvious route do people favouring independence now just give up? Is it a case of just shrugging, accepting and getting on with this total binfire of a UK? 

Just to add, me & Mrs S are currently in Bordeaux. Over a boozy lunch and chatting with folk at next table which spread through the place, the French can't believe a) Brexit, b) voting No, c) why we don't move here! Not scientific, obviously, but by f*ck the UK/Sunak/Westminster are all seen as one big joke. 

 

No one will give up, I simply think that the current merry go round will continue in perpetuity. The current cycle of Scottish politics is along the lines of:

 

1) SNP landslide election win

2) SNP FM hails good results as a mandate for a referendum/independence itself

3) UK PM tells SNP FM to f**k off

4) Issue goes quiet for a bit, SNP eventually lose seats and kill it dead for a few years.

5) UK government does something stupid

6) SNP support grows again

7) SNP win landslide

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

I think we are around item 4 on the second cycle of this list since 2015. And I think it will continue for several decades like this. 

[Bula Bairn]

2 hours ago, lichtgilphead said:

So, you agree with me. @Jedi2 is making stuff up. The SNP will not declare UDI if they win a majority of seats at the upcoming general election.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that a majority of seats in a FPTP election is not a mandate for independence unless pro-indy parties (including the SNP, Greens & Alba) also get >50% of the vote. 

Obviously a true mandate should be obtained through a referendum, but the undemocratic UK refuse to allow Scotland that form of self-determination. Given that the both the UK government and main opposition party keep telling us that Scotland is a drain on UK finances, you have to ask yourself why. Is it out of the goodness of their hearts, or are they hiding the real reasons?

Denis Healey admitted to lying about Scotland's wealth when he was chancellor... 

https://newsnet.scot/archive/labour-party-lied-over-true-worth-of-north-sea-oil-admits-former-chancellor/

Nothing's changed with Labour. 

[Jedi2]

So, if the SNP win a majority of seats in 5 weeks time (as many still expect them to do)...what will they call for?

I accept @lichtgilphead point about his disagreement over a 'majority of seats' being insufficient, but should rather be a majority % ie over 50% of votes cast for pro-Independence parties.

However, the Conference motion is clear...its the seats route-so, what do you think they will do, post-GE?

[JS_FFC]

12 minutes ago, Jedi2 said:

So, if the SNP win a majority of seats in 5 weeks time (as many still expect them to do)...what will they call for?

I accept @lichtgilphead point about his disagreement over a 'majority of seats' being insufficient, but should rather be a majority % ie over 50% of votes cast for pro-Independence parties.

However, the Conference motion is clear...its the seats route-so, what do you think they will do, post-GE?

I think you’re misunderstanding what a UDI means. They are proposing to “begin negotiations”. These negotiations will last about 10 seconds with the UK PM telling them to f**k off. It’s an entirely performative gesture to increase their own support (When they quite rightly point out that if we can’t have a referendum and we can’t negotiate independence either, what CAN we do?)

 

What they’re not going to do is start building embassies around the world and claiming that we are already independent. Which is what a UDI would entail. 

[lichtgilphead]

35 minutes ago, Jedi2 said:

However, the Conference motion is clear...its the seats route-so, what do you think they will do, post-GE?

Well Jedi, if your (laughable) prediction that the SNP will only win 8 seats is correct, we might as well argue about angels dancing on pins.

Why do you persist in arguing a point that you seemto be absolutely certain won't happen?

Let's pretend for a minute that Scottish Labour, Scottish Conservatives & The Scottish Lib Dems are actually political parties rather than regional accounting units. Whilst the SNP may be the largest "Scottish" party after the GE, I doubt that they will hold 29/57 WM seats. 

However, as we all know that the Tories will be back in power at Westminster within an absolute maximum of 15 years (and more likely 10 or 5), where are all the disillusioned Labour votes going to go at that time?

[Jedi2]

'Laughable' Prediction of 8 seats..(which the current polls point to).

UDI....A unilateral declaration of independence or "unilateral secession" is a formal process leading to the establishment of a new state by a subnational entity which declares itself independent and sovereign.

 

A 'formal' process. Need we return to the Conference Motion again?

It's all semantics...a majority of seats lead to the SNP 'considering' Scotland to have voted for Independence at that point, and what follows is said formal process of negotiation to determine how it will be worked out.

That therfore is what is on the Voting paper in 5 weeks.

[sophia]

1 minute ago, Jedi2 said:

'Laughable' Prediction of 8 seats..(which the current polls point to).

UDI....A unilateral declaration of independence or "unilateral secession" is a formal process leading to the establishment of a new state by a subnational entity which declares itself independent and sovereign.

 

A 'formal' process. Need we return to the Conference Motion again?

It's all semantics...a majority of seats lead to the SNP 'considering' Scotland to have voted for Independence at that point, and what follows is said formal process of negotiation to determine how it will be worked out.

That therfore is what is on the Voting paper in 5 weeks.

What a bore

[lichtgilphead]

UDI by negotiation. What a concept. Is this Keir's latest vote-winning pledge?

Happy to offer a charity bet that the SNP get more than 8 seats. Let's see if @Jedi2 will put his money where his mouth is.

 

 

[Dan Steele]

4 hours ago, Jedi2 said:

Help ma boab...even SNP Conference is 'lying' now according to purveyor of all wisdom and top troll, @lichtgilphead

For the avoidance of doubt the wording the motion again (I know, I know, it's 'lies' but hey, it is from www.snp.org.

Conference believes that if the SNP subsequently wins a majority of the seats at the General Election in Scotland, the Scottish Government is empowered to begin immediate negotiations with the UK Government to give democratic effect to Scotland becoming an independent country and establish a Constitutional Convention constituted by the MPs elected to Westminster, MSPs and representatives of civic Scotland.

'Immediate negotiations'...(No, not my words, but the words of those SNP members who drafted the motion, and then had the motion passed at Confernece..and John Swinney's words 2 days ago that he would honour said motion.

So...is it 'lies' that if the SNP win a majority of seats at the GE that they will begin 'immediate negotiations' to give effect to Scotland becoming an Independent country.

Which part is lies...those who drafted the motion, those who voted for it, John Swinney restatement of it...or all 3?

 

Are you just deliberately obtuse?

[Binos]

3 hours ago, Bula Bairn said:

Denis Healey admitted to lying about Scotland's wealth when he was chancellor... 

https://newsnet.scot/archive/labour-party-lied-over-true-worth-of-north-sea-oil-admits-former-chancellor/

Nothing's changed with Labour. 

The gers figures are a modern equivalent 

[Jedi2]

11 hours ago, lichtgilphead said:

UDI by negotiation. What a concept. Is this Keir's latest vote-winning pledge?

Happy to offer a charity bet that the SNP get more than 8 seats. Let's see if @Jedi2 will put his money where his mouth is.

 

 

Wouldn't trust you to walk me across the street let alone pay a bet.

However, if the SNP win a majority of seats I will gladly make a donation to a Charity of your choice.