git-intae-thum Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Oh. I should add that labour also polled more votes in Scotland than the Tory party at the last GE. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 On 30/01/2020 at 08:45, Dons_1988 said: It is the ultimate red herring when people argue against independence with arguments on the SNP’s record in government and should never really be engaged. If we ever had a notion of civic nationalism in Scotland then I'd agree with you. Even if we had some sort of pragmatic nationalism - based on how best we are placed economically - then you could have a decent point. What Scotland does have, instead, is ethno-nationalism driven by the SNP and based on grievance and identity. Hence the Jimmy bunnet-wearing gonks carrying 'Tory c***s' placards. This is how the SNP wants to do nationalism. This is also how the SNP want to be judged. So if the SNP want a hate-fuelled form of nationalism (and remember their entire campaign in December was based around Stop the Tories) then it's entirely sensible to examine what they have brought to the party in their decade of running Scotland plc and the answer is the square root of heehaw. Their only two notable achievements amount to making schools worse and in politicising the police. So Natterism promises unicorns and rainbows all round if it were not for The English, The Tories and That Westminster. The true truth of the SNP is stupid weans and politicised police. Scotland has had 20 years of semi-independence, 10 of them under SNP rule. It is no better off now than it was 2 decades ago and, arguably, much worse off than it was 10 years ago in key areas. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Steele Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, AB de Villiers said: but you’re a part of it and we vote as the UK, not Scotland. We vote as Scots in Scotland. These votes are added to all the other votes in England, Wales and NI. A Union of equals would perhaps, I don't know, have equality in discussions over Brexit. When people see their country being ignored or marginalised, is it not right that the role of the Union be analysed? And if seen to be against a country's interests with material changes happening, then a move to being in charge of all that country's levers seems sensible. No? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 I’ve consistently said that I don’t believe there is such a thing as a mandate on this issue. Not everybody who votes SNP wants indyref2 or independence, the same as not every Tory wanted Brexit. The only way you can really have a mandate on this issue, is by holding a referendum on whether we should have a referendum. Which really isn’t going to happen is it? I’m not saying we should exclusively use polling data over an election, but given the clear message portrayed in the polls over the last few years it would be silly to ignore it. I’m sure if 95% of polls supported independence, the Nats would be adding that to their case too.There are two issues though.It's not just whether or not there should be IndyRef2.It's also about who should have the final say on if there should be an IndyRef2.I personally don't think it should be the decision of one person in a party voted for by a very small percentage of people in Scotland. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Fair enough, but I should pick you up on one point. The only people who constantly talk Scotland down is the Nationalists. When you look at the GERs Figures for example - we know that the Scotland spends £12.6Bn more than we raise in revenue. The fact that we do so without generating a deficit is a benefit of the Union and of the Barnett Formula where we all get to share in the wealth generated by London and the South East. On my side of the debate everyone seems comfortable with that. London is one of the major financial centres in the world, and it's wealth is distributed around the UK. However the Nationalist see this in a very negative light. First it was a lie generated by the Westminster system. It's not. The GERs Report is compiled and published by the Scottish Governments own actuaries and advisers. Then they claimed it was an attack on Scottish people - it's not. Then they claimed that it was proof that the Scottish economy was being held back by the Union - it isn't. And finally they claimed that it's only with Independence that investment in Scotland will flourish - which no-one can possibly know for a fact but which seems highly unlikely especially if you are putting trade barriers between Scotland and our main market - which is the rest of the UK. Scotland within the Union does extremely well. We're seeing record levels of employment, low levels of unemployment, growing wage increases, low rates of inflation and we're very much a part of one of the richest economies in the world. It is only in the Nationalist mind that we should destroy all of that and risk 10 - 20 years+ real austerity (not the kiddy on stuff that the SNP claim the Tories have given us), higher taxation, and low levels of foreign investment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Jesus - I just greenied an Oaksoft post. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 You are aware that not every SNP voter is pro-independence? The party that attained the most seats, and most votes, won the UK General Election. Scotland voted to stay in the UK. What’s undemocratic about that?And not every Tory was pro-Brexit . . . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, AB de Villiers said: Sturgeon would back indyref2 even if there was 1% support, and Johnson would probably reject it even if there was 99% support. Eh? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tirso Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Just so we're clear if in the next year there is consistent polling in favour for the right to hold a referendum you would support it?I think decisions by polling rather than elections is utter madness but seen as you think mandates cannot come from elections (*!!??) at least it would be a start. Fair enough, you make a good point. I don’t think it should be up to Sturgeon or Johnson. Sturgeon would back indyref2 even if there was 1% support, and Johnson would probably reject it even if there was 99% support. I’m not entirely sure what the answer to that question is, but my main point is that there certaintly isn’t a mandate for it right now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, tirso said: Just so we're clear if in the next year there is consistent polling in favour for the right to hold a referendum you would support it? I think decisions by polling rather than elections is utter madness but seen as you think mandates cannot come from elections (*!!??) at least it would be a start. There will almost certainly be no such poll. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, MixuFixit said: 6 minutes ago, AB de Villiers said: It’s not at all irrelevant, considering that ‘git-intae-thum’ was using the SNP winning elections to prove there is a democratic mandate. I quite comfortably proved him wrong on the issue. And yes, it’s clear that you only have personal insults to bring to the table. I can guess who you vote for... He's correct. Why do you feel insulted? Are you a dribbling simpleton? Or arguing in bad faith? Interesting question. I'd say both, the former determining his abject failure at the latter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 27 minutes ago, AB de Villiers said: It’s not at all irrelevant, considering that ‘git-intae-thum’ was using the SNP winning elections to prove there is a democratic mandate. I quite comfortably proved him wrong on the issue. ^^^^^^ How dare the SNP keep "Winning elections to prove there is a democratic mandate." have a wee think about what you are actually saying here FFS. It would be laughable if you weren't serious. Instead it's actually kind of scary 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 minute ago, AB de Villiers said: The SNP winning an election is not a democratic mandate for independence. It’s a democratic mandate for the SNP to run the country. It's a democratic mandate for them to enact the policies they were elected on. You know that is how democracy is supposed to work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, MixuFixit said: There's a majority for a referendum and a majority for the power to hold referenda to lie with the Scottish parliament. You had a shot and made an arse of it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 minute ago, AB de Villiers said: No there isn’t. 1 minute ago, MixuFixit said: Aye there is. I wonder how we could work out what the majority is. There must be a way. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpetmonster Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said: You had a shot and made an arse of it. There was a shot when support for independence started out at circa 33% at the start of the campaign and ended up at 45%. The Tories would only grant a referendum if they were sure that Scotland wouldn't say yes. They're not; and likely now won't ever be, given the base for yes starts at 45%, so won't grant it. Adding an extra 40% to your constituency in the space of a few months doesn't sound like making an arse of it to me. Edited January 31, 2020 by carpetmonster 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 minute ago, The_Kincardine said: You had a shot and made an arse of it. FFS you at it as well. If we only ever had one vote on anything..the f@ckin wig party would be in power and petty theft would still be a capital crime. There has been huge material change since the last vote. Even you acknowledge this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, AB de Villiers said: It’s blatantly clear, however, that you are just an England hater with very little political knowledge. ^^^^ Hmmm.......Arguing for respect for Scottish democracy makes one an "England hater" does it Jog on The reality is you have made an absolute arse of yerself here and come across as quite the fascist. ....it must be about time for you to self ban yourself again. Edited January 31, 2020 by git-intae-thum 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said: There has been huge material change since the last vote. Even you acknowledge this. A material change? For sure. The Natters have upped the ante since 2014 and we've moved from pragmatism to dogma. This is not a good look for the Natters. I am getting boring on this subject but you Natters have to try and move away from rhetoric and devise a much more inclusive view of New Scotland that doesn't involve the politicisation of national symbols, tropes and culture. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpetmonster Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said: I am getting boring on this subject but you Natters have to try and move away from rhetoric and devise a much more inclusive view of New Scotland that doesn't involve the politicisation of national symbols, tropes and culture. In the huff that drunken Scotsman stereotype being threatened with minimum pricing type post IMO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.