When will indyref2 happen?

[Granny Danger]

On 30/01/2020 at 13:40, renton said:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/01/30/scottish-independence-yes-leads-remainers-increasi

Yes 51, No 49

Shift is in remainers to Yes.

 

22 hours ago, renton said:

In that poll, under 49s break 65/35 for yes. 

That’s an encouraging poll, but sadly nothing more than that.

I would love to think that within the next 10 years Scotland will be Independent.  However it will be interesting to see the results of that same poll 10 years down the line.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Tarmo [emoji23]

[Malky3]

45 minutes ago, tirso said:

I doubt she was banking on that as it was never particularly likely.

She's banking on the Scottish people moving towards independence in sufficient numbers that it makes the blocking of a referendum indefensible.  If it gets to the point a clear and consistent majority want one, at some point London needs to face up to that.  I don't think it makes Sturgeon or Scotland look weak at all.     

On the other hand, I totally disagree that policy should be dictated by YouGov or any other polling company.  It's by elections we decide things in this country.  It may mean creating a pro-referendum coalition and looking for over 50% support in an election.   The SNP and Greens are at 46%.  It's as good a mandate as anything ever used to do most things but it's not completely explicit.  I'm not sure what the  pro-Pariiament Labour and SNP vote was before 1997 but i'm sure it was more than 50%.  

I've never been more sure Scotland will be independent than now.  The generational change is clear and it's not all Braveheart stuff.  It's a gradual changing of the guard.  Even if you don't support independence, I see people wanting Scotland to be better and fed up of being told we're crap all the time.  I think a lot of people, ultimately, just want Scotland to be better and the unionists seem to be losing any kind of positive vision.  

 

Fair enough, but I should pick you up on one point. The only people who constantly talk Scotland down is the Nationalists. 

When you look at the GERs Figures for example - we know that the Scotland spends £12.6Bn more than we raise in revenue. The fact that we do so without generating a deficit is a benefit of the Union and of the Barnett Formula where we all get to share in the wealth generated by London and the South East. On my side of the debate everyone seems comfortable with that. London is one of the major financial centres in the world, and it's wealth is distributed around the UK. 

However the Nationalist see this in a very negative light. First it was a lie generated by the Westminster system. It's not. The GERs Report is compiled and published by the Scottish Governments own actuaries and advisers. Then they claimed it was an attack on Scottish people - it's not. Then they claimed that it was proof that the Scottish economy was being held back by the Union - it isn't. And finally they claimed that it's only with Independence that investment in Scotland will flourish - which no-one can possibly know for a fact but which seems highly unlikely especially if you are putting trade barriers between Scotland and our main market - which is the rest of the UK. Scotland within the Union does extremely well. We're seeing record levels of employment, low levels of unemployment, growing wage increases, low rates of inflation and we're very much a part of one of the richest economies in the world. It is only in the Nationalist mind that we should destroy all of that and risk 10 - 20 years+ real austerity (not the kiddy on stuff that the SNP claim the Tories have given us), higher taxation, and low levels of foreign investment. 

 

 

[tirso]

21 minutes ago, AB de Villiers said:

I’ve consistently said that I don’t believe there is such a thing as a mandate on this issue. Not everybody who votes SNP wants indyref2 or independence, the same as not every Tory wanted Brexit.

The only way you can really have a mandate on this issue, is by holding a referendum on whether we should have a referendum. Which really isn’t going to happen is it?

I’m not saying we should exclusively use polling data over an election, but given the clear message portrayed in the polls over the last few years it would be silly to ignore it. I’m sure if 95% of polls supported independence, the Nats would be adding that to their case too.

Ah I misread you.  I didn't realise you actually meant it is physically impossible to get a mandate ON THIS ISSUE.  That's definitely a novel approach no-one has thought of.  Fair play.

 

 

[git-intae-thum]

36 minutes ago, AB de Villiers said:

 

I’ve already taken apart your nonsensical posts previously, and you’ve failed to show me where Westminster has denied democracy. Scotland voted to remain in the UK, yes the big issue of Brexit has happened since then, but given that the vast majority of polls in Scotland show that independence is not wanted, I fail to see how you can suggest anything undemocratic here. 
 

It’s also fairly ironic, that a supporter of a party with the slogan ‘STOP BREXIT’ can accuse anybody of being an anti-democrat.

 

 

For goodness sake this is point and laugh stuff.

You have taken apart nothing.

All you have done is think up ways to justify the Tories continuing to ignore Scottish democracy.

How else then can the result of numerous votes held in the last 6 years be so easily ignored. Tragic stuff really.

It cannot be easy coming to terms with the fact you support the denial of democratic right but I do get it though. You are a British nationalists. You do not want to see Britain finished. That trump's everything.....even democracy.

Remember we are talking about Scotland.....where the vast majority do want to "STOP BREXIT"...........and the Tories are very much a minority party........with no electoral mandate to deny anything

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by git-intae-thum

[Malky3]

1 hour ago, Rodhull said:

2 is endless now by the way everyone. Surprised at the lack of protests at the endless general elections we've had since 2014. Bojo said the last election was once in a generation as well.

liar

[Malky3]

39 minutes ago, AB de Villiers said:

I don’t think there is such a thing, to be honest. However, I think Sturgeon will have to prove that a majority of Scots want independence. 65 out of the last 68 opinion polls suggest otherwise, and I’d say a consistent showing of independence favoured polls over the space of at least a year would be a start.

I’m not totally against the idea of indyref2, but to suggest that Scottish Tories, and Westminster are denying democracy is just downright lies, that reeks of desperation.

I’ve already taken apart your nonsensical posts previously, and you’ve failed to show me where Westminster has denied democracy. Scotland voted to remain in the UK, yes the big issue of Brexit has happened since then, but given that the vast majority of polls in Scotland show that independence is not wanted, I fail to see how you can suggest anything undemocratic here. 
 

It’s also fairly ironic, that a supporter of a party with the slogan ‘STOP BREXIT’ can accuse anybody of being an anti-democrat.

The more I read your posts, the more it is apparent that you are either a troll or just not very switched on, as you seem to the Tories need a mandate to govern Scotland, for some bizarre reason. Scotland is part of the United Kingdom, it voted to be, and the Tories were voted into power. Scotland might not always be in the UK, but they are just now, so yes the Tories do have that right. Pretty simple stuff really.

 

Beautifully done. That's them telt. 

[Malky3]

39 minutes ago, Blootoon87 said:

Can any unionist please explain what they would accept to as a mandate for Indyref 2 please? Genuine question.

Nothing  - for a generation! Then after that if there was an obvious demonstrable majority for Independence then the question could be tested again. 

The SNP came up with the once in a generation spiel, not the Unionists. You can't have endless re-runs with you shifting the goalposts every five minutes. It just looks completely undemocratic. 

[Malky3]

30 minutes ago, Rodhull said:

Like last time the only way they'll agree to a referendum is when they're absolutely confident of a no vote. Nothing else will matter.

The SNP/Greens/Whoever could get a massive majority at the next Scottish parliament election and they would still find another way to say now is not the time, no matter how hypocritical it looks.

I am absolutely confident of a NO vote. 

[Blootoon87]

A generation after IndyRef1.

How long is a generation? Boris Johnson said that December's General Election was a "critical, once in a generation" vote. Five years then?

[Malky3]

Just now, Blootoon87 said:

21 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

A generation after IndyRef1.

How long is a generation? Boris Johnson said that December's General Election was a "critical, once in a generation" vote. Five years then?

Well both Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon elaborated at the time and went down the "once in a lifetime route" so really if we want to be literal I'd say we need to wait till everyone who voted in 2014 is dead. 

 

[git-intae-thum]

1 minute ago, AB de Villiers said:

 

Still waiting for you to tell me how the Tories are ignoring democracy? We’ve been here a while now.

 

Eh......I would think it obvious.......unless the results of numerous elections held in Scotland, since 2016 and the vote of the Scottish parliament is to be ignored.....

And we start working on the premise that a party that attains 25% of the vote dictates to the party who achieved 45%. 

That is a strange form of democracy. 

[The_Kincardine]

4 minutes ago, Blootoon87 said:

24 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

A generation after IndyRef1.

How long is a generation? 

In Peterhead?  13 years.

[Stellaboz]

Well both Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon elaborated at the time and went down the "once in a lifetime route" so really if we want to be literal I'd say we need to wait till everyone who voted in 2014 is dead. 
 

Great, I'll get to work on shooting every single no voter.

[Malky3]

5 minutes ago, Stellaboz said:

8 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Well both Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon elaborated at the time and went down the "once in a lifetime route" so really if we want to be literal I'd say we need to wait till everyone who voted in 2014 is dead. 
 

Great, I'll get to work on shooting every single no voter.

And only this morning Nationalists on here were claiming the sinister threats were all on the Unionist side.....

[git-intae-thum]

 

1 minute ago, AB de Villiers said:

You are aware that not every SNP voter is pro-independence?

The party that attained the most seats, and most votes, won the UK General Election. Scotland voted to stay in the UK. What’s undemocratic about that?

Are you saying that every vote for a British nationalist party is a vote for the union?

Again we are talking about Scotland...not the UK. I don't care if everyone in England voted Tory, it doesn't mean Scotlands vote should just be ignored because the vast majority of us voted differently.

I honestly would have thought unionists would get that, if they were keen to maintain the integrity of a union of nations.........unless the unions a bit of a sham of course. Surely not.

 

 

[Blootoon87]

In Peterhead?  13 years.

So Boris Johnson lied about the General Election being a once in a generation vote?

[KingRocketman II]

1 hour ago, Malky3 said:

Oh FFS, weeks on and your still stuck on that loop. 

[Stellaboz]

And only this morning Nationalists on here were claiming the sinister threats were all on the Unionist side.....[emoji849]

Because I'm deadly serious tae
[emoji38]

[git-intae-thum]

Just now, AB de Villiers said:

No, I am absolutely not saying that and you’ve just made something up once again. 
 

You can say you don’t care about the UK all you want, but you’re a part of it and we vote as the UK, not Scotland. I notice you’ve shifted away from your ‘voting democratically is undemocratic’ agenda on to this new nonsense of ‘I don’t care about what anyone else thinks, I only care about my opinion’. It’s not how it works, champ.

Lol....wit

You pointed out the fact not everyone who votes SNP wants a referendum. I simply pointed to the reverse also being true. In fact at least 25% of current labour voters support independence going on a recent poll.

As for the rest of your post. What a laughable fudge. As I said earlier.....coming to the realisation you are an anti democrat must be uncomfortable for you. By all means keep thinking up ways to justify a minority party denying Scottish democracy if it makes you feel better.

But it's not going to last.